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Have few types but with many possible functions for each.  The simpler option

38 (42.2%)

Have many different types that each takes a particular input, for long assembly lines

29 (32.2%)

Have many types, allow using the wrong ones, but using them correctly lets the items have quality levels

23 (25.6%)

Total Members Voted: 69

[IndigoFenix]

How about gnomes that operate the contructs?

Gnomes runs to workshop, does "Operate clockwork Dragon". Gnome turns immobile and stays in Workshop, but you can spawn a clockwork dragon, which you can control, either in squads (which is difficult to do, but possible by using very rare castes) or by pastures/wartraining. The gnome stays in the workshop the entire time. If he leaves (lets say by a second worker that runs a reaction that affects him) the clockwork dragon becomes immobile/deactivated. If the dragon dies, the gnomes can move again.

So you build a construct, but sacrifice the time of the worker to have it actually do something.

This could probably be done, but I'm not sure if it's worth it.  The constructs aren't THAT powerful - they are basically as effective in combat as a regular armored animal with NOPAIN.  (Internal clockwork is fairly fragile.)

I'm almost done with the animal system.  It's...pretty complex stuff.  I'll have to post the formulas so that testers can judge the system accurately.  In a nutshell: Ability to tame wild animals using the Nature Shrine is based on how kind you are to your own pets as well as the local wildlife.  You CAN hunt for food if you really need it, but it's not advisable (pets attacking wildlife will also be held against you, so try to avoid it).  Losing pets is bad.  Setting pets free is good.  Raising baby animals gives you a bonus which is lost if you release them before they're fully grown.  Losing pets due to carelessness (hunger, thirst, or cave-ins) is worse than letting them be cut down by enemies.  Both keeping and releasing animals caught from the wild is much more significant than those raised in captivity, but letting them die is also much more significant.  Training wild animals is always a plus.  Keeping animals in cages or chains (whether wild or tame) is bad, although this can be easily remedied by releasing them.  Slaughtering pets at the butcher's shop is VERY VERY BAD, especially to an animal that was caught in the wild, just don't do it.  Everything is multiplied by the creature's pet value, so what happens with high-level animals is much more significant than what happens with low-level animals.

Also, high level animal trainers will find it much easier to tame wildlife.  Only successful attempts will increase their experience.  Sitting and waiting for animals to walk by is NOT an effective means of grinding trainer skill.  However, it will occasionally produce Druidic Tokens, which no longer increase the probability of a successful taming, but they do increase the range at which it can be done.  Use them wisely.

There is also a new workshop, the 'Advanced Animal Training Area'.  Pasturing animals in it will allow you to train them to do all kinds of things.  You can train animals to follow the trainer, train them to follow another animal, instruct them to stop following whoever they're following, train animals for hunting or war even if they are not normally trainable, and undo training for hunting or war, although the success for any of these is not guaranteed.  This is ALSO a complicated formula.  High-value animals will be harder to train, and the details of what exactly you're trying to do with each species figures into it greatly - for example, a species that tends to come in large clusters is easier to teach to follow a leader, predators and carnivores are easier to train for hunting, species that like fighting are easier to train for war, it's easier to train a predator to follow prey than the other way around, and so on.  Wildlife merit is not a factor, but trainer skill is (the trainer level is cubed in the formula, which may be a bit extreme).  A low level trainer won't be able to do much with even low-value animals, but a high-level one will be able to get pretty much any animal to do whatever he wants.  War tuskoxen?  Why not?

[mahrgell]

Wow, that sounds like you wrote an enitrely new game! Awesome!
Zoo Simulator anyone?

[Meph]

I see one problem with that: Wildlife, no matter the type, is not match for an ambush or a siege. Some cavern monsters and pretty rad uber-animals like colossus elephant or giant crocodiles, yes, but your beavers, common kestrels, owls, deer and whatnot that you have usually running around the surface... they are all useless in combat.

I love the new mechanic, but the player must get an advantage from it, especially since you restrict food/leather/fat/bone/skull production with it, which are needed for high-value tradegoods (meals), leather armor, clothing, bags, ropes, backpacks, fat for tallow or candles, bone for flux or crafts, totems....

All this cant be used from your domestic animals, only to catch wild animal more easily. This means you need at least one additional workshop that can make the animals better. Raising their skills, attributes, interactions, armors, anything.

PS: When you say animal, do you mean creatures with the NATURAL tag, or can gnomes also do this with weird cavern monsters that run around? Taming Mummies and Lost Invaders, Amethyst Golems and Serpentmen tribes?

[IndigoFenix]

I see one problem with that: Wildlife, no matter the type, is not match for an ambush or a siege. Some cavern monsters and pretty rad uber-animals like colossus elephant or giant crocodiles, yes, but your beavers, common kestrels, owls, deer and whatnot that you have usually running around the surface... they are all useless in combat.

I love the new mechanic, but the player must get an advantage from it, especially since you restrict food/leather/fat/bone/skull production with it, which are needed for high-value tradegoods (meals), leather armor, clothing, bags, ropes, backpacks, fat for tallow or candles, bone for flux or crafts, totems....

All this cant be used from your domestic animals, only to catch wild animal more easily. This means you need at least one additional workshop that can make the animals better. Raising their skills, attributes, interactions, armors, anything.

PS: When you say animal, do you mean creatures with the NATURAL tag, or can gnomes also do this with weird cavern monsters that run around? Taming Mummies and Lost Invaders, Amethyst Golems and Serpentmen tribes?

Well, all creatures in contact with gnomes will automatically gain CAN_LEARN, which helps.  Most of the animals are still fairly useless against strong sieging enemies, but remember that gnomes are so tiny that even a goblin thief can be a threat.  And even small animals can be quite effective in large numbers, especially when trained for war.  But for the most part, the main reason for taming small animals is to make it easier to tame large animals like the aforementioned giant crocodiles.  It's also possible that they'll get more improvements later - I'm planning on reworking the clockborg system in a way that will let you give animals metal parts as well.

Also, it's worth noting that hunting in moderation isn't that bad, as long as you balance it out by raising and occasionally releasing animals.  Taming an animal through any means and releasing it immediately will get you a minimum of 10*petvalue merit points, while killing a wild animal will only cost you 2*petvalue points.  If an animal does the hunting, half that.  Really, it's how you treat your pets that matters the most.  Don't stuff animals in cages, don't play General Failure with your war dogs, don't arbitrarily slaughter everything that wanders onto your map, raise lots of pets and deal with overpopulation by releasing extra animals instead of sending them to the butcher, and you'll be fine.

The main reason I got the idea for this system was because the previous system allowed you to magically tame animals through your innate communion with nature and then lead them straight to the butcher.  On a regular basis.  And that just felt wrong.

Currently, only wild animals with the NATURAL tag, as well as PET or PET_EXOTIC, can be tamed, but it's possible that later updates might give them the ability to tame other things as well.  Not sure about the undead cavern monsters, but animalmen and megabeasts are certainly a possibility.  Also, it's worth noting that all titans and forgotten beasts have the NATURAL tag...

[Meph]

Maybe everything that doesnt have NOT_LIVING/OPPOSED_TO_LIFE. That way you single out undeads and artificial creatures like golems. But on the other hand, why shouldnt they be able to sweettalk some gem-giant in the caverns? ^^

The main reason I got the idea for this system was because the previous system allowed you to magically tame animals through your innate communion with nature and then lead them straight to the butcher.  On a regular basis.  And that just felt wrong.

Yeah, that makes sense.

[IndigoFenix]

Updated!  And the guide is in too.

Maybe everything that doesnt have NOT_LIVING/OPPOSED_TO_LIFE. That way you single out undeads and artificial creatures like golems. But on the other hand, why shouldnt they be able to sweettalk some gem-giant in the caverns? ^^

Well, the next planned step is to give them some abilities related to knowledge of the earth, and possibly gain new abilities based on their awareness of the local subterranean area.  Like, by learning where fault lines are and studying the composition of rocks in the area, they can learn to trigger earthquakes and shape the land around them.  Maybe that could figure into communication with the local elementals as well...

[Meph]

Would it be ok if I add your beta-version to the next release? I want to publish the Warlocks, merged with the SWP pack and Teellox Orc Rebalances in one week. It would include some GUI changes by Splinterz as well, to toggle Warlocks and Gnomes as playable.

That way people could test the gnomes easier, and you can just drag/drop the files into the release, because the GUI would be all set up already.

[IndigoFenix]

Would it be ok if I add your beta-version to the next release? I want to publish the Warlocks, merged with the SWP pack and Teellox Orc Rebalances in one week. It would include some GUI changes by Splinterz as well, to toggle Warlocks and Gnomes as playable.

That way people could test the gnomes easier, and you can just drag/drop the files into the release, because the GUI would be all set up already.

Sure.  It would be good to get some feedback.

[Arcvasti]

I see one problem with that: Wildlife, no matter the type, is not match for an ambush or a siege.

I'm not so sure about that. Forest spiders for sure and maybe large hooved animals would stand a chance against most non-drow ninja enemies. Even small inoffensive animals are dangerous in large numbers. I can't name the amount of times my serial killer adventuer has been killed by 10-12 cats even with legendary weapon, armor and dodger skill.(Starting with legion dwarf). And I recall Molenarok was a huge sucess in Syrupleaf. Don't dismiss the wrath of the furries so easily....

EDIT: Also, PTW.

[IndigoFenix]

So I'm doing some stuff with subterranean abilities.

Gnomes combine technology, intuition, and general connection with the earth to gather information about the underground without seeing it.  So far I've got three mechanics: a deep-surface scan that hints to the general presence of any unusual structures in the area (downward passages, magma pools, curious underground structures, etc.), a seismograph that gradually reveals random individual tiles all over the map (only solid stone, no peeking into the caverns without actually opening them up), and a prospecting station that gives hints about what minerals may appear in different directions on the map.  It can make your rare-mineral searches easier, without being as cheaty as simply using 'reveal' (which would, admittedly, make these functions pointless.)

The real complicated thing I've got on my mind is a drilling rig.  Basically a workshop that drills one tile into the ground for every pipe section you feed it, and upon encountering water or magma, can suck them up and bring them to the surface.  Essentially a much simpler way of making a pump stack.  I'm not entirely sure how plausible it is, but it shouldn't be impossible.  In principle, each 'layer' of the drill would be a different workshop, spawned in set locations by reactions.

[arcturusthelesser]

So I'm doing some stuff with subterranean abilities.

Gnomes combine technology, intuition, and general connection with the earth to gather information about the underground without seeing it.  So far I've got three mechanics: a deep-surface scan that hints to the general presence of any unusual structures in the area (downward passages, magma pools, curious underground structures, etc.), a seismograph that gradually reveals random individual tiles all over the map (only solid stone, no peeking into the caverns without actually opening them up), and a prospecting station that gives hints about what minerals may appear in different directions on the map.  It can make your rare-mineral searches easier, without being as cheaty as simply using 'reveal' (which would, admittedly, make these functions pointless.)

The real complicated thing I've got on my mind is a drilling rig.  Basically a workshop that drills one tile into the ground for every pipe section you feed it, and upon encountering water or magma, can suck them up and bring them to the surface.  Essentially a much simpler way of making a pump stack.  I'm not entirely sure how plausible it is, but it shouldn't be impossible.  In principle, each 'layer' of the drill would be a different workshop, spawned in set locations by reactions.

Is the deep-surface scan a reaction that's on something else, or a whole workshop unto itself?

For the drilling rig, a series of questions:

-Need it be made of magma-safe materials if that's what you want to pump, or are the pipe sections enough?
-Does it need power?
-Must you pump the first fluid you encounter, or can you choose to go deeper if it isn't what you wanted?
and the corollary
-Is it useless if you breach open space before a cavern, or can you choose to bypass it somehow?
-How/where does it deposit fluids?

[Meph]

I voted 1 and 2.

1. Explosive mining sounds awesome.
2. Extra limbs sounds more like something horrible that demons/mutation would do, not something nice. Even artificial limbs (like servitors from warhammer) are not... nice. And gnomes are this happy friendly animal-bound GOOD race with passive warfare protecting themselves with traps. I just cant see a 6 armed gnome cyborg crushing people. ^^
3. Always for this. I noticed you use plenty of dwarf reactions, and the overall playstyle is still similar.

Hope Warmist releases his powered-workshop plugin soon, so that you can play around with it. It would be nice if gnome forts would end up with 50 windmills, 500 mechanisms and cogs and gear assamblies, every second workshop needs power, remote controlled siege-engines and 200 unmarked levers around.

Spoiler: Clockborg Gnome Chapter Symbol (click to show/hide)

At least thats how it starts to sound.

[arcturusthelesser]

2. Extra limbs sounds more like something horrible that demons/mutation would do, not something nice. Even artificial limbs (like servitors from warhammer) are not... nice. And gnomes are this happy friendly animal-bound GOOD race with passive warfare protecting themselves with traps. I just cant see a 6 armed gnome cyborg crushing people. ^^

I don't get how bionic/extra limbs are evil. As long as it wasn't made beneficial to the point that it's advantageous to get your gnomes hurt, it'd add a layer of depth to the game. Extra limbs, however, would probably get very broken, very quickly, if you're getting more attack rolls than your opponent is getting.

Besides, gnomes are just as geeky-engineering and steampunk as they are benign nature loving cowards.

One slightly creepy thing I noticed though is that exoskeleton-equipped gnomes use 'it' as a personal pronoun in their bios. Maybe that's a little much.

[IndigoFenix]

Six-armed cyborg crushing people, probably not, but equipment that gives them an extra pair of hands for holding craftsman's tools, quite likely.  That's what the handy helmet is supposed to be, although currently it just gives a boost to certain skills.  But it would be cool if it could actually hold stuff.  Of course, this is all very speculative.  Body plans are probably among the hardest things to change once the creature already exists, especially if you want them to actually use the extra parts.  But it's worth a try.

I'll work on diverging the gnome playstyle from the dwarfs at some point, although they will probably wind up being very capable of pulling off stupid dorf tricks even better thann dwarves themselves.  Now how can dwarven computing be made easier or more fun?

[Meph]

Now how can dwarven computing be made easier or more fun?

For one thing I would say it has to be made more common. Not that many people use machines, because they barely have a use. Millstone, Pumpstack, Tracks. Thats it. And the vanilla millstone has the quern as replacement, so there is next to no reason for power at all.

I know that warmist made some working siege engines that spew fire when you pull a trigger, and that they need power. If basic things like workshops suddenly need power, more people would experiment with machines.

Making the buildmats readily available is another step. If you need so many mechanisms for all these traps, getting them cheaper would help. Adding trapparts that have special effects would help too. SPATTER_ADD coated trapcomps for example.

Higher natural skill or skill learn rate for mechanics and (siege)-engineering, as well as cheaper siege materials and ballista ammo.

Easy access to liquids, because many stupid dwarf tricks use them a lot, like pressurized magma.

Easy access to magmasafe blocks, doors, floodgates, hatches, mechanisms... everything you need to build these larger traps. Preferably in batches or sets or both. A trap-factory that uses no skill for insta low-quality objects would fit this well, as I had menioned at some point before.

Maybe a low mining skill, so mining with picks is slow, but boni from "mining drill" and "mechanised mining drill" and "high powered mining drill" and so forth. Not getting better from skill, but from the equpiment their use. Same with woodcutting. Axe vs Saw vs powered Saw vs Chainsaw.

PS: In 3-4 days I want to release the next mod version with the Warlocks. Including the gnome beta, so if you have something that should be added till then, please sent it / post it till then.