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Author Topic: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance  (Read 23700 times)

Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2013, 06:11:43 am »

Somewhat controversial idea, I'm thinking of making raider drydocks aboveground-only (this is possible with DFHack r4). I'm also considering making some or all of the orcish altars above-ground, especially given their names (Circle of Stones, Sun and Stars Orrery, Altar of Storms, etc).  Taiga orcs live in forests, it makes sense for their important religious buildings to be above-ground.
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2013, 09:15:58 am »

Its not controversial. They are supposed to be mostly aboveground. Its simply that the aboveground-only script didnt exist then.

Dont be so shy about changes. If there is something I dislike (and even my opinion is just that, an opinion) I will say something. Remember that this is smakes mod, not mine, and he is inactive. I am sure he would be delighted if he knew that someone wants to maintain it. I know he wanted the drydocks to be on water-only, but that couldnt be done either. (and would lead to drydocks on pools^^)
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2013, 09:56:01 am »

Don't be so shy about changes. If there is something I dislike (and even my opinion is just that, an opinion) I will say something. Remember that this is smakes mod, not mine, and he is inactive. I am sure he would be delighted if he knew that someone wants to maintain it. I know he wanted the drydocks to be on water-only, but that couldnt be done either. (and would lead to drydocks on pools^^)

Only orc tribes with no honour would build their drydocks on pools.

But aye, I shall be bold with my changes!  The Taiga orcs shall enjoy a new era of glorious conflict!

On that note, I'm discovering that modding is a lot more challenging than bug-fixing! Adding the ability to raid farmlands required adding the item to the item file, the reaction to the reaction file, and the reaction to the entity file! I know I'm going to forget something is needed in a file sooner or later. (Luckily I'm keeping track of what needs testing, and I have software to hopefully spot me making inconsistent changes.)

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #18 on: December 24, 2013, 10:10:40 am »

If you think reactions are difficult... wait for new creatures. Interactions. Entities. ^^
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2013, 01:14:31 am »

If you think reactions are difficult... wait for new creatures. Interactions. Entities. ^^

Actually, on that note, how do Dwarves get their guild membership in their title, especially on embark? Is it with the CASTE_PROFESSION_NAME tag, or something else? I'd love for "Greenskin McMuscles" to display as "Greenskin McMuscles, Uruk".

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2013, 02:38:36 am »

Yes, its caste professions. Its quite a bit of work, because they are declared in every caste, giving custom names for all guild-skills and the peasant. Creature_standard.txt has plenty of examples.
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Gamerlord

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2013, 11:14:45 am »

How have I not found this before.

1. Scalps - YES.
2. Aboveground drydock/temples - ALSO YES.

Both of those sound awesome. Can we also get some new melee weapons added? Preferably 'tribal' ones?

Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2013, 12:53:18 pm »

How exactly do you want to do scalps?

Take skull => Make Scalp and Totem ? That would make the most sense. If you mod the creature files of the intelligent creatures to include scalps when being butchered, all races will suddenly take scalps.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2013, 09:36:16 pm »

How have I not found this before.

I don't know, but I'm so glad you have. :)

Quote
1. Scalps - YES.
2. Aboveground drydock/temples - ALSO YES.

Awesome. Scalps I'm hoping to work on today or tomorrow.  Above-ground drydocks and temples are implemented. The top-post of this thread will always list the work I've done so far, and you can even download my work in progress if you're keen. If you're interested in contributing, I'd be delighted with the help. There's a contributor's guide and my current milestone objectives;)

Quote
Both of those sound awesome. Can we also get some new melee weapons added? Preferably 'tribal' ones?

Yes, although they may end up in the milestone after this if it's just me doing the rebalance. I think there's potential to add some of the 'Orc' weapons (they're a difference race and items from Taiga Orcs), and I know that Meph would like to eventually combine both races.

In any case, suggestions of new tribal weapons welcome. They're my favourite as well, I love the satisfaction of a kill made with claws, and one of my favourite orcs was a Dreamwalker sorceress with crystal claws and dragonscale armour.

Quote from: Meph
How exactly do you want to do scalps?

Take skull => Make Scalp and Totem ? That would make the most sense. If you mod the creature files of the intelligent creatures to include scalps when being butchered, all races will suddenly take scalps.

Right now I'm having it so that you take an itemcorpse, and it gives you a scalp and totem. Obviously that's going to be an orc-only reaction, and it will change when itemcorpses are removed.

I agree that a 'skull => scalp + totem' reaction makes the most sense when itemcorpses are removed, and for races that don't use itemcorpses (eg: dwarves). Is it possible to specify reactions that only take a body-part from a creature with a particular creature-class? That would make it most easy to specify which races can be scalped.  (Also, would all this work correctly in the case of a head decapitation? I'm assuming it will, because if nothing else the head will rot to a skull, which is what we use...)

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2013, 10:22:12 pm »

Quote
Right now I'm having it so that you take an itemcorpse, and it gives you a scalp and totem. Obviously that's going to be an orc-only reaction, and it will change when itemcorpses are removed.

I agree that a 'skull => scalp + totem' reaction makes the most sense when itemcorpses are removed, and for races that don't use itemcorpses (eg: dwarves). Is it possible to specify reactions that only take a body-part from a creature with a particular creature-class? That would make it most easy to specify which races can be scalped.  (Also, would all this work correctly in the case of a head decapitation? I'm assuming it will, because if nothing else the head will rot to a skull, which is what we use...)
Dont write anything for itemcorpses, because I am in the process of removing them.

Particular creature-class: In theory yes. Give sentient creatures their own bones for their skulls and add REACTION_CLASS:something. Then you take a skull and make "Scalp an elf skull", which only accepts REACTION_CLASS:ELF. It will work. Easiest would be to just do one set, for all sentients. But if you really want to split it by races, its possible as well. Just more work.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #25 on: December 25, 2013, 10:38:22 pm »

Don't write anything for itemcorpses, because I am in the process of removing them.

\o/

Quote
Particular creature-class: In theory yes. Give sentient creatures their own bones for their skulls and add REACTION_CLASS:something. Then you take a skull and make "Scalp an elf skull", which only accepts REACTION_CLASS:ELF. It will work. Easiest would be to just do one set, for all sentients. But if you really want to split it by races, its possible as well. Just more work.

That is absolutely fabulous. :) REACTION_CLASS:ORC_SCALPABLE is what I'd be looking at as a first run, and since I presume things can have multiple reaction classes I can move that to [REACTION_CLASS:SCALPABLE][REACTION_CLASS:ELF] for my second milestone. (First milestone is just getting a scalping system in at all).

Thank you again!

~ T
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #26 on: December 25, 2013, 10:58:50 pm »

Yes, multiple classes are fine. You could make reactions that accept any scalp, and reactions that only take specific scalps this way.
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Urist McTeellox

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #27 on: December 25, 2013, 11:47:17 pm »

Feedback requested - Purify iron with blood and flame

There's been a bit of discussion in another thread about iron vs ironbone as a building requirement, with orcs often being starved for actual iron. The result of this is an unintentional bottleneck when building the blacksmoke furnace, which is essential for orcish iron production, and yet requires iron to build. It's been pointed out that ironbone and bloodsteel represent the "old ways", and iron and steel the "new ways", and that the blacksmoke furnace is definitely a "new ways" building.

I propose there be a 'purify iron with blood and flame' reaction, possibly at the smelter, but suggestions for other buildings are welcome. I propose this is an expensive reaction, needing a barrel of blood, *two* rusty iron bars, and fuel; the product being a single iron bar. This would remove the accidental bottleneck on iron, but wouldn't be an attractive reaction for cleansing iron in bulk.

Feedback is appreciated on this proposed reaction.

Feedback requested - Tribal Circle

I'm mapping out the scalping system, and I want to add a new workshop that forms the locus of it. I'm imagining a "tribal circle" or "tribal bonfire", which would be a core building for orcs. I'm looking at it being 5x5 in size (although we may make it bigger, see below), and built from common components. Orcs will gather here before great battles, and celebrate their victories after them.

It will feature the ability to "scalp fallen enemy" (yielding a totem and scalp), and 'sew standard of honor' (requiring 10 scalps, and possibly a length of cloth). As the honour system is expanded, those reactions will be available here. I'm anticipating both a tiered honour system (5 standards of honor can be combined into a 'great standard of honor'), and race-specific items ('craft item of elven conquest'). Standards will be non-consumable items that are required to construct some buildings. For example, I would like the shadowbroker not to depend upon obtaining a blueprint, but upon gaining enough clan honor.

The workshop will also feature buffs. I dislike the micromanagement required at the totem pole to apply buffs; it's too easy for an orc to buff themselves twice, nearby orcs *may* or may not be affected (it uses a boiling stone rather than DFHack), and the skill itself is locked to the EXTRACT_STRAND skill, which is only featured on dreamwalkers. The music buffs are less bad, but they result in orcs running around casting music interactions on everyone they see, and I don't think they're exclusive. Having an orc playing bagpipes, the drums, the horn, AND wielding a two-handed weapon in battle doesn't feel right.

Instead, the tribal circle buffs will take a reagent, and apply the buff to all orcs currently in the workshop (this is easy with DFHack). You station your squads in there once, run the buff, and then head into battle. All the thematic goodness, but without the micromanagement. Because this will apply buffs to all units in the workshop, it might make sense to have it larger than 5x5.  In fact, it might make sense for there to be different tiers of this building (tribal circle -> great tribal circle), with the higher tiers requiring standards of honor, and having more reactions available.

I'd like the buffs to be more thematic to the tribal theme we have going. The courage buff would involve applying tribal warpaint made of blood. The pain-resist buff would involve fortifying warriors with fire, and so on. All of these buffs would be warrior-oriented, they wouldn't use any of the dreamwalker skills.

One of the side-effects of this change is that it would essentially obsolete the existing totem pole. Soulgems and spirit talismans are likely to be created from Meph's new soul system, and can be crafted at any of the Places of Power (circle of stones, etc).

Questions

(Answer as many as you like)
  • What should this building be called? Tribal Circle is my working name.
  • Should there be multiple tiers of this building? How big should they be? Does it make sense to have tiered buildings?
  • What buffs and reactions should we implement here? Brainstorming appreciated! Be bold and creative!
  • Are we happy retiring the totem pole? Can you see a thematic way for it to be repurposed?
  • Do you like designing buildings, or writing reactions? Would you be interested in helping contribute?
  • Any other thoughts?

Many thanks!

~ T
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CptCrunchy

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2013, 12:06:44 am »

I like the idea of multiple tiers for it, I felt that that worked pretty well in dwarf mode's religion system.  Perhaps the scalps and other honor-related things should be seperate from the military reactions though, to avoid reaction bottlenecks. 
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Meph

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Re: [ORC] The Proud Orcish Rebalance
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2013, 12:29:13 am »

Quote
Instead, the tribal circle buffs will take a reagent, and apply the buff to all orcs currently in the workshop (this is easy with DFHack). You station your squads in there once, run the buff, and then head into battle.

I think a creature, an immobile pet "standard of honor" would be best. You can pasture it, it gives AoE Buffs, it can be destroyed by the enemy, you can set it up whereever you like, and it works well with the interactions.

Cleaning rusty iron shouldnt take 2 bars. Its just rust removal. Most rusty iron comes in form of items anyway, so you have to melt them down first, then clean the rust, then smelt what you like. Thats already a lot of work.
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