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Author Topic: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading  (Read 7262 times)

Haschel

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2013, 03:15:40 pm »

Disappointing. As a person that owns 500+ games on steam, in the past couple years I've been coming to regret a lot of purchase decisions on it as a platform. Overall I'm satisfied with how Steam functions despite it's quirks here and there, but it's really just the fact that I've got digital titles attached to a single "user" account that makes me worry. If anything should happen to Steam, whether simple policy changes or complete shutdown of the platform, it's the consumers that pay the price. This is one of the big factors that's kept me a firm console supporter- PC games have no resale value (even if they are physical copies, there's very little market for selling). If I purchase a console game it'll be the same price on release as a digital copy, but I have the option of selling it for anywhere from 25-60+ percent of it's value when I choose to be done with it.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2013, 03:28:58 pm »

I don't buy games to retain resale value. What I do expect, though, is to be able to trade/gift whatever I do own to whomever I wish.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 03:30:07 pm »

Well I know countries like Brazil have a tax for video games.  I really do think this is for legal reasons so steam can continue to legally be used in countries like Brazil.  GoG is basically helping users tax dodge by not having regional prices.  Personally I think the tax is stupid, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Also, the  1 € = 1 $?  The price is set by publishers.  Many games now have different prices for different currencies.

I hate these stupid hate circlejerks, they are so unreasonable.  If you want to be angry, be angry at the laws and bullshit that not only allow this sort of thing, but promote it.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2013, 03:35:55 pm »

Also, the  1 € = 1 $?  The price is set by publishers.  Many games now have different prices for different currencies.

... Which is just a way of ripping off non-US currency buyers. "Publishers set prices" does not work in the real world where 1 Euro = 1.37 US dollars. Why should Euro users have to pay a 30% premium when a company decides actual exchange rates don't matter anymore?
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2013, 03:36:25 pm »

And they're trying real hard to crack down on the used game market. If they thought they could get away with it, they'd require online validation for a game purchase and associate the game with the console, so no other console can validate that copy of that game. You'd have to modify your console to bypass the check or set all games to "validated", which of course is against the EULA and illegal in the US regardless.

Of course they'd prefer the DRM to check online throughout play, such as they've done with a lot of PC games lately. But that ends up ruining the play experience because the connection isn't 100% foolproof so it shuts down frequently.

Their desire for control has no effective limit beyond the limits of our submission. If we didn't complain they'd control us as much as they're physically able to, like crushing someone in a vise. They control us as much as they can before we cry out and revolt.

Yeah it's only games blah blah, not worth complaining about, if you don't like it don't buy, just go to the park or play a board game if you don't like the deal. Who cares if heartless beasts destroy something wonderful for everyone?
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Sappho

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2013, 03:46:11 pm »

I talked to a game publisher. They are given the option to set the regional prices if they want to. If they decline or don't bother, then Steam defaults to one dollar equals one euro, which is a very nice way of saying "fuck you, everyone who doesn't live in America!"

I can see there being legal issues with making sure taxes are paid in the proper places, but there is no reason whatsoever why games sold in a system like this should cost different amounts in different regions.

Puzzlemaker

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2013, 03:48:14 pm »

And they're trying real hard to crack down on the used game market. If they thought they could get away with it, they'd require online validation for a game purchase and associate the game with the console, so no other console can validate that copy of that game. You'd have to modify your console to bypass the check or set all games to "validated", which of course is against the EULA and illegal in the US regardless.

Of course they'd prefer the DRM to check online throughout play, such as they've done with a lot of PC games lately. But that ends up ruining the play experience because the connection isn't 100% foolproof so it shuts down frequently.

Their desire for control has no effective limit beyond the limits of our submission. If we didn't complain they'd control us as much as they're physically able to, like crushing someone in a vise. They control us as much as they can before we cry out and revolt.

Yeah it's only games blah blah, not worth complaining about, if you don't like it don't buy, just go to the park or play a board game if you don't like the deal. Who cares if heartless beasts destroy something wonderful for everyone?

Augh, go put on a tinfoil hat.

"Heartless beasts?"  These are people you are talking about.  People with jobs, lives, and who are trying their best to make a living.

You ever play Papers Please?  You should.

They have done a lot of things badly but they have done a lot of things well too.  Look at the greenlight system.  It jumpstarted indie gaming in a big way.

You basically just sidestepped my point about tax evasion, then made a nice strawman about DRM.

No, I don't agree with DRM.  But I do understand it.  I'll complain about it, but I wont call them evil for implementing it.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2013, 03:54:04 pm »

Augh, go put on a tinfoil hat.

"Heartless beasts?"  These are people you are talking about.  People with jobs, lives, and who are trying their best to make a living.

You ever play Papers Please?  You should.

They have done a lot of things badly but they have done a lot of things well too.  Look at the greenlight system.  It jumpstarted indie gaming in a big way.

You basically just sidestepped my point about tax evasion, then made a nice strawman about DRM.

No, I don't agree with DRM.  But I do understand it.  I'll complain about it, but I wont call them evil for implementing it.

You sure are full of facts today aren't you. I think you've got a chip on your shoulder.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2013, 03:56:03 pm »

Augh, go put on a tinfoil hat.

"Heartless beasts?"  These are people you are talking about.  People with jobs, lives, and who are trying their best to make a living.

You ever play Papers Please?  You should.

They have done a lot of things badly but they have done a lot of things well too.  Look at the greenlight system.  It jumpstarted indie gaming in a big way.

You basically just sidestepped my point about tax evasion, then made a nice strawman about DRM.

No, I don't agree with DRM.  But I do understand it.  I'll complain about it, but I wont call them evil for implementing it.

You sure are full of facts today aren't you.

What "Facts", I just called him out for talking about a gaming company like they are the Third Reich.  That's not a "Fact", that's just trying to be a decent person. 

No, it's not perfect.  We should complain about certain things.  But we shouldn't dehumanize and demonize people.  Ever.

Edit:  Edited because I can't read.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:10:34 pm by Puzzlemaker »
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The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of the mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one.

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2013, 03:59:42 pm »

What "Facts", I just called you out for talking about a gaming company like they are the Third Reich.  That's not a "Fact", that's just trying to be a decent person. 

No, it's not perfect.  We should complain about certain things.  But we shouldn't dehumanize and demonize people.  Ever.

You're not even reading the author name of the posts you're referring to.  :)

I'll just enjoy this a bit. I'm just curious, Puzzle, what the disparity between Steam's Euro-US exchange rate and the real world Euro-US exchange rate would need to be before you consider it unfair to Euro users?

1 € = 1 $ is okay to you.

1 € = .5 $ Too far off the mark?

1 € = .75 $ Better, worse?

Just to explain your position further because you seem fine with Euro users paying an arbitrary 30% premium. I'm just curious what the difference between actual exchange rate and steam's exchange rate would need to be before you care about overcharging them.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:01:22 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2013, 04:02:14 pm »

Your right, I am sorry.  I didn't read the authors name, hehe.

I am not okay with it.  Of course I am not, it's stupid.  I never said otherwise.

I am talking about the title of the thread here.  You know, the topic.

Edit:  Although, looking at it...

http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=uk
http://store.steampowered.com/?cc=us

It looks like the prices reflect the currency for most, if not all, of the games.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:05:55 pm by Puzzlemaker »
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2013, 04:11:10 pm »

And they're trying real hard to crack down on the used game market. If they thought they could get away with it, they'd require online validation for a game purchase and associate the game with the console, so no other console can validate that copy of that game. You'd have to modify your console to bypass the check or set all games to "validated", which of course is against the EULA and illegal in the US regardless.

Of course they'd prefer the DRM to check online throughout play, such as they've done with a lot of PC games lately. But that ends up ruining the play experience because the connection isn't 100% foolproof so it shuts down frequently.

Their desire for control has no effective limit beyond the limits of our submission. If we didn't complain they'd control us as much as they're physically able to, like crushing someone in a vise. They control us as much as they can before we cry out and revolt.

Yeah it's only games blah blah, not worth complaining about, if you don't like it don't buy, just go to the park or play a board game if you don't like the deal. Who cares if heartless beasts destroy something wonderful for everyone?

Augh, go put on a tinfoil hat.

"Heartless beasts?"  These are people you are talking about.  People with jobs, lives, and who are trying their best to make a living.

You ever play Papers Please?  You should.

They have done a lot of things badly but they have done a lot of things well too.  Look at the greenlight system.  It jumpstarted indie gaming in a big way.

You basically just sidestepped my point about tax evasion, then made a nice strawman about DRM.

No, I don't agree with DRM.  But I do understand it.  I'll complain about it, but I wont call them evil for implementing it.

1: I didn't say evil. A suit who lets his programmers make a wonderful game, lets his PR team make everyone salivate for it, and then slaps always-on-internet DRM on it is exactly like a man who offers a child an ice cream and then shits in it.

They shit in our ice cream.

And it's not necessary. They're just paranoid that someone might play the game without paying for it - for example, if you get tired of it and hand it to someone else. That represents a player who would have otherwise paid for the game, and revenue for the company.

2: A corporation can be shitty because of its corporate culture, and because everyone in it is working to benefit the company and ignoring their moral compass. You get a million hands holding up an empty throne. Sure those people are just keeping their heads down and trying to get through the working day. But that rationale doesn't work: if you do something lame because you were ordered to, you are still responsible for doing that thing.

When a high level manager at Nestle buys a local water supply and screws over the local population, then orders too much water pumped out - way more than the contract allowed - and screws them over even more ... that's a bad thing happening and a human is doing it.

I don't give a shit about corporations because they don't give a shit about me. I'm a potential giver of money, consumer of goods. I am not a human being from a corporate perspective; and to me, corporations are ready excuses for organized malfeasance.

3: I'm not using DRM as a strawman. Steam is a DRM system, and now they're trying to restrict people from doing something they used to be able to. The tool they're using to enable that restriction is already in place in the Steam DRM.

4: If Steam or GOG are not paying the required taxes, or the publisher doesn't pay the required taxes, I'm sure the country will ask politely for them to obey the law and if they refuse the country will sue and/or sanction them appropriately. I trust that when I buy a candy bar, the store will pay the appropriate sales taxes out of whatever they charged me for that candy bar.

They can explicitly add the tax to the bill so when you pick up the candy you think it's $1 but you actually have to pay $1.09, but the customer doesn't pay that 9-cent tax - the final seller does. It shows up on their tax return. The buyer is supposed to deduct the sales tax as an exemption, or it's included in the general exemption on an "easy" tax form.

5: Tinfoil hat? Now who is arguing dirty?

6: Steam Greenlight was created because Steam knew it would make them money and further entrench them in their market. Anything else is PR spin.
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Sappho

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2013, 04:14:53 pm »

I feel left out. No one is flaming me for my post.

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2013, 04:15:29 pm »

That's because everyone knows you're wonderful.
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Steam/Valve Cracking Down on Regional Gifts/Trading
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2013, 04:16:04 pm »

Well I know countries like Brazil have a tax for video games.  I really do think this is for legal reasons so steam can continue to legally be used in countries like Brazil.1  GoG is basically helping users tax dodge by not having regional prices.  Personally I think the tax is stupid, but that's how the cookie crumbles.

Also, the  1 € = 1 $?  The price is set by publishers.2  Many games now have different prices for different currencies.

I hate these stupid hate circlejerks, they are so unreasonable.  If you want to be angry, be angry at the laws and bullshit that not only allow this sort of thing, but promote it.3

Yes, back to your original points. Can you cite your sources?

1:  More specifically about Brazil discontinuing use of steam, or threatening such actions due to price homogenization around the world. Actually, find me any country that is threatening to make steam 'illegal'.

2: Where did steam acquire their default 1 = 1 ratio in Euro-US conversion? Publishers or their own idea? I'll give you a bit. The hint is: "We ask publishers to set the pricing and if not it defaults to our value [a completely made up 30% premium price to market exchange rates, so why would publishers change this?]" [paraphrase]

3: Which laws can you point to, and in what way is activity like this being encouraged by world governments? The EU is actually actively looking into the Steam US-selectivity issue. Be angry at some laws for us and educate us about how this isn't just Steam being cash grabbing fools.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 04:17:43 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
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