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[shadowclasper]

Under specific circumstances, that certain unnamed civilizations are capable of rising beyond their normal roots and becoming civilizations in full.

This would require one of several things.

1) A titan or forgotten beast or demon takes control of the unnamed civilization and begins to force them into a new form. This will give them the trappings of a Goblin civ.

2) The Kobolds can begin inviting them into their own civilization. Giving them the trappings of Kobold Civilization as they splinter away into their own tribes.

3) One of their camps is actually taken over by the new racial mechanics, then they rebel and break away. They take on the trappings of the group that conquered them sociologically and technologically, assuming they actually break away in rebellion, or are not exterminated first.

4) They occupy the ruins of some other civilization that have abandoned it. They maintain their own sociological ethics and such, but they take on the technology of the ruins they inhabit.

5) (rarest) if they have NO contact with other races when a particular age ends or begins. Unnamed civs that have not had any contact with any of the above (something nearly impossible) will begin forming their own proper civilizations.

So what do you think guys? Interesting? Yes or no?

[PersonGuy]

Under specific circumstances, that certain unnamed civilizations are capable of rising beyond their normal roots and becoming civilizations in full.

This would require one of several things.

1) A titan or forgotten beast or demon takes control of the unnamed civilization and begins to force them into a new form. This will give them the trappings of a Goblin civ.

2) The Kobolds can begin inviting them into their own civilization. Giving them the trappings of Kobold Civilization as they splinter away into their own tribes.

3) One of their camps is actually taken over by the new racial mechanics, then they rebel and break away. They take on the trappings of the group that conquered them sociologically and technologically, assuming they actually break away in rebellion, or are not exterminated first.

4) They occupy the ruins of some other civilization that have abandoned it. They maintain their own sociological ethics and such, but they take on the technology of the ruins they inhabit.

5) (rarest) if they have NO contact with other races when a particular age ends or begins. Unnamed civs that have not had any contact with any of the above (something nearly impossible) will begin forming their own proper civilizations.

So what do you think guys? Interesting? Yes or no?

Sounds okay it would make for more interesting world.

[CaptainLambcake]

are we talking animal-men?

[shadowclasper]

are we talking animal-men?

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Civilization#Unnamed_Civilizations

[Owlbread]

So what do you think guys? Interesting? Yes or no?

I think this is a great idea. I agree with every one of your points.

5) (rarest) if they have NO contact with other races when a particular age ends or begins. Unnamed civs that have not had any contact with any of the above (something nearly impossible) will begin forming their own proper civilizations.

It's not impossible though if they live on an island or they live underground. Think of uncovering vast, underground bat man temples and villages as you dig deep.

3) One of their camps is actually taken over by the new racial mechanics, then they rebel and break away. They take on the trappings of the group that conquered them sociologically and technologically, assuming they actually break away in rebellion, or are not exterminated first.

Perhaps there could be conflict and unrest within the civilisation between those who would prefer to return to the old ways rather than adopting the ways of the conquerer and those who seek modernisation. That could be the case for all your points though.

[shadowclasper]

So what do you think guys? Interesting? Yes or no?

I think this is a great idea. I agree with every one of your points.

5) (rarest) if they have NO contact with other races when a particular age ends or begins. Unnamed civs that have not had any contact with any of the above (something nearly impossible) will begin forming their own proper civilizations.

It's not impossible though if they live on an island or they live underground. Think of uncovering vast, underground bat man temples and villages as you dig deep.

3) One of their camps is actually taken over by the new racial mechanics, then they rebel and break away. They take on the trappings of the group that conquered them sociologically and technologically, assuming they actually break away in rebellion, or are not exterminated first.

Perhaps there could be conflict and unrest within the civilisation between those who would prefer to return to the old ways rather than adopting the ways of the conquerer and those who seek modernisation. That could be the case for all your points though.

Basically, my idea is predicated upon making this stuff function for the purposes of the new conquest mechanics, where one civ can take over a location just by occupying the central place of it.

I hope Toady introduces a mechanic like this for taking over a dorf fort. Would add an entire new dynamic to the game if you had to say, defend your Wagon (early embark), your Trade Post (mid embark) or Highest ranking noble's throne room (mid-late game).

Anyway, the point is that these unnamed civilizations are starting off from a point of disadvantage, but they can grow larger very quickly once they reach the right age.

It'll be especially interesting once Toady implements digging for NPCs so they can carve their own areas out of the underworld.

Anyway, I really like the idea of underground civilizations growing over time.

[RenoFox]

These are some of the best suggestions of all time! I've always wanted more from the animal men, and these would really make them a proper factor in the game! The demons or megabeasts taking over make perfect sense, and occupying ruins is absolutely brilliant. I think Kobolds already are a proper animalman civilization, but other than that all these suggestions are pure perfection.

[Azerty]

I would like to see animalmen be more developped, with clans headed by chied and with a shaman (if they follow their old gods (ancestors, nature and (semi-)megabeasts) or priests (if they are converted by their civilized neighbours to the worship of gods and heroes).

It would be good to see more marked differences between collectivistic antmen and more individualistic tigermen and being able to either have trade with them for obtaining wood, food, pearls and shells for glass and clothes or waging war against them to gain living space and spoils.

During gen they could occupy the fringes of the civilized worlds or be found as slaves, traders and mercenaries.

Under specific circumstances, that certain unnamed civilizations are capable of rising beyond their normal roots and becoming civilizations in full.

This would require one of several things.

1) A titan or forgotten beast or demon takes control of the unnamed civilization and begins to force them into a new form. This will give them the trappings of a Goblin civ.

2) The Kobolds can begin inviting them into their own civilization. Giving them the trappings of Kobold Civilization as they splinter away into their own tribes.

3) One of their camps is actually taken over by the new racial mechanics, then they rebel and break away. They take on the trappings of the group that conquered them sociologically and technologically, assuming they actually break away in rebellion, or are not exterminated first.

4) They occupy the ruins of some other civilization that have abandoned it. They maintain their own sociological ethics and such, but they take on the technology of the ruins they inhabit.

5) (rarest) if they have NO contact with other races when a particular age ends or begins. Unnamed civs that have not had any contact with any of the above (something nearly impossible) will begin forming their own proper civilizations.

So what do you think guys? Interesting? Yes or no?

I like these ideas!

[mate888]

It is a great idea! I'd love to see, for example, Kobolds banding together with, say, Jaguar men, and then begin slowly takeng power in the Elven Woods!

[My Name is Immaterial]

I wonder how they would deal with ethics conflicts.

[Icefire2314]

The Deadly Rods is a civilization of Troglodytes
A vile fortress of darkness has arrived!

900000000000 troglodytes have appeared in the units screen.

[shadowclasper]

I wonder how they would deal with ethics conflicts.

I'd imagine that each generation would have different sets of ethics going on based upon the civilization. As time went on, ethics would shift slowly over based upon chance. Each child born would have a chance for each of it's ethical values to be that of the ruling power's, not their biological parents.

This would go on until the conquered settlement's ethics perfectly matched their civilizations.

if it rebelled and started a new civilization on it's own part way through the process, then this process would basically enter into a natural selection type thing. Eventually you'd get an ethics base that was some kind of weird fusion of both the group that had 'civilized' them, and their original civilization.

What do you guys think?

[Detoxicated]

Great idea. It would lead to some weird shit

[Manveru Taurënér]

I wonder how they would deal with ethics conflicts.

I'd imagine that each generation would have different sets of ethics going on based upon the civilization. As time went on, ethics would shift slowly over based upon chance. Each child born would have a chance for each of it's ethical values to be that of the ruling power's, not their biological parents.

This would go on until the conquered settlement's ethics perfectly matched their civilizations.

if it rebelled and started a new civilization on it's own part way through the process, then this process would basically enter into a natural selection type thing. Eventually you'd get an ethics base that was some kind of weird fusion of both the group that had 'civilized' them, and their original civilization.

What do you guys think?

That's actually fully planned. Like I quoted in the other ethics thread up atm:

Rainseeker:   Is it going to be possible for us to get civilizations like goblin civilizations that go in unexpected directions like maybe they get a leader somehow from an elven civilization who enforces their beliefs on the goblins or something?
Toady:   I only put in little teeny baby steps in that direction back when I set up those ethics; looking in that direction I made it so that the ethics sit inside the civilization so that they're mutable; it doesn't just look at the definition that you put in the raw files, but within each civilization they're mutable; but they don't actually change yet. But that kind of thing is what will allow certain individuals and even sub movements ... this is the kind of thing where say in dwarf mode if you have a philosophical movement spring up and enough of your dwarves adhere to it it should start changing the actual fortress civilization in terms of how it thinks, and whether that's happening because the actual fortress ethics are changing or just because a majority of the people follow the ethics of this movement ... it's kind of one leads to the other, or it should anyway. So we're thinking about those things, we're definitely not ignoring that kind of stuff, but it's just a matter of getting it done and that always takes a long time.

You can always just sit here and talk about features without promising anything and timelines and all that kind of thing, so I'm not sure when that sort of thing comes up, because we've got that level of variability already with the clothing and then there's things that don't vary right now like the ethics which should vary, and what comes first and what comes later?
...Snip...
Then when you've got an ethic associated with that - this is really going to build up those ethics lists for the civilizations - and that's again when we need ethics to be malleable for civilizations. Right now the infrastructure's there to allow them to be different but it's never used. It should be interesting to slowly start tackling stuff and like I was saying the doorway there is probably the adventure entities and your reputation through those entities.
...Snip...
The ethics lists in the raws are a list of a premade culture for a group that's going to be created during world generation and then suddenly have that culture. This is so that you can have the flavour in the universe that you want to have, especially when you're modding where you have some notions of how they should behave and so on, like an elf or a dwarf when you want those to behave in certain ways in general, so you create these preconceived cultures for them. Now that doesn't respect how a culture might emerge, there's no notion of an emergent culture right now that's built up through racial traits and geography and history and so on. Those kinds of things should come up at least after the fact, like you've got these civilizations but they should be able to change a little bit once play begins at least, right? It's not really hard to give a really crappy simulation for an evolved culture, you plop the ten guys down, they have no ethics and then you just examine how crazy are the monsters in that area and what sort of resources are there and then bring up some silly model for how that would determine the ethics in some way, and then put a giant random element on it, and slap them down, and you've got a procedural starting point. But that's not necessarily compelling, it's interesting to have the variation, that certainly should be in there, but the main thing is how variation can occur through the history that occurs once the history starts. That's a step by step process, just putting in different influences and changes and what happens if you have several goblins somehow get assimilated into an elven society, and then all the elves get killed and then the goblins found a little thing up in the mountain somehow when they get chased out of the forest, then what are they? What do these goblins think? Does that lead to a whole goblin movement coming down from the mountains to reclaim the forests or something?
Rainseeker:   (as goblins)We are the true elves!
Toady:   Yeah it's all very weird, that kind of thing. Right now it's kind of strange ... Normally you'd think the hard part is getting the changes to occur, but right now there are too many changes in a way, like kidnapped dwarves and humans and elves and so on assimilate immediately and societies that are conquered by the dwarves and then get a dwarven overlord put over them, they're assimilated immediately and then they go on to spread that culture entirely without maintaining their previous one. It's kind of the opposite problem of implementing cultural diffusion and assimilation, and the interest comes when you do it half way, because the main thing that's missing from the game in terms of world generation and everything about making that interesting is the notion of conflict, not like a war but an internal conflict within one person, that drives their decision making. Having multiple cultural backgrounds for a single person is a great way to do that, and that's really the foundation of a lot of literature and so on, having those conflicting backgrounds and so on. It's one of those things that would start to be realised when you have the leaders moving around during play, which is not too far away, just getting more personal decision making in for the leaders, then there would be more of an impetus to draw on that kind of information. At least there's some challenges, because if you've got a hundred thousand people you can't keep track of every little thing about what they think and all that kind of stuff. The important decision makers are the ones that are going to be done first. It has all their background saved, it has all the historical things that led up to their present time and all of their previous entity affiliations and so on, so it can have a pretty good background but what it really needs is a snapshot sitting in their head of what their current ethical belief and value system is. Then it'll be easy to filter decisions through that and just have that vary over time as they move from place to place and various things happen to them that move them from culture to culture as they are exposed to other cultures. One of the main things we're missing is an exchange between two cultures that doesn't involve them just killing each other, there's not a notion of trade or alliance during world generation that can build up that sort of thing. Then when you get into regular play it's all just the same thing over again, when your adventurer's running around you are an agent of cultural diffusion as you go from place to place; that should have some kind of effect.

[fractalman]

The Deadly Rods is a civilization of Troglodytes
A vile fortress of darkness has arrived!

900000000000 troglodytes have appeared in the units screen.

the horror...oh the horror!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

.0000000000111111 fps, anyone?