Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[+!!scientist!!+]

Ok, I'm confused for a variety of reasons, and while I have a lot of ideas swimming around in my head, I can't decide on who I think looks the most guilty. Last night just adds to the confusion, because jailing ToonyMan seems to have stopped the killing, even though it really shouldn't have. I know that there are at least four town roles, and that means there has to be a JOAT, which means that my action should have done nothing. The final outcome, therefore, confuses me greatly.

I'd really like to see some more discussion here so that I have more to work with, so I'll give us a chance to discuss some more.

+!!Scientist!!+: Extend.

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Elephant Parade: ToonyMan
Superblackcat:
+!!scientist!!+: makeinu
makeinu:
ToonyMan:
NativeForeigner:

No Lynch:

Not Voting: Elephant Parade, Superblackcat, +!!scientist!!+, NativeForeigner


+!!scientist!!+ has used his extend.


Day 4 will last until Monday, 2/3 at 11 PM EST.

[NativeForeigner]

Good, it got extended. I'll be posting later tonight.

[Superblackcat]

I can't really tell who is town and who is not. At this stage, there isn't any drama going on, and the Vanilla townies was not very involved in the last one...

Elephant Parade: Hey there! Any reason why you aren't mafia and 2 of the other three are?

[makeinu]

SBC: any reason why you aren't mafia and the other two are?

EP at least has stated reasons for his level of inactivity. You haven't. NF hasn't either, really.

[Superblackcat]

I was inactive for a weekend and a day. Which I stated the reason for as i forgot about bay12.

Anyways. No, There really isn't anything supporting me here. If Tiruin came up as Mafia, maybe, but as things turned out, All I did yesterday was tunnel on Tiruin, and she came up as SK, which doesn't support my case the least bit.

Also, stating reasons for inactivity= town, while not = not town?.

I don't see your logic here.

[Superblackcat]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin

SuperBlackCat: Did you take notice of my query to you? Please tell me you aren't-didn't, actually-miss this.
Quote
Alright, I agree that I wasn't really scum hunting in the early stages, wasn't even really here.
You were busy doing...?
Quote
But let me ask you, was I correct? Against Caz, I pressured her[...]
Caz is a cuddly wuddly male and you should know that. >:I

Though I guess he finds it amusing that you think he's female.

Also so you don't have to click my link given you use a tablet and I don't know how that works:
Quote

What [exactly] do you see in TDS' posts that make him worthy of your vote? What are your general reads on the populace?
Specifics edited in and detailed with brackets.

I'm blind...

Alright, When I read his posts, it makes me cringe inside. I've gone back, reread it, and thought why it does, and it comes down to this.

When a town is defensive, I usually expect, and see, a town appealing very hard, trying to not be lynched, and just trying.

The way TDS is being defensive seems an offhand, Are you sure? way. It's like when you ask someone something, and they blow it off with sarcasm, that seems scummy to me. Just reading through TDS's posts again, almost all of them never directly goes against you (which you would expect someone who is/was voting you, and being defensive against your attack). But instead, he just blows them off.

PS: Makeinu, can you explain Uncanny Valley here. Because I don't want to re-explain my thinking here.

You mean this...

[spoiler=Uncanny Valley as it relates to mafia games]What you describe is the concept of the Uncanny Valley.

The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers. Examples can be found in the fields of robotics,[1] 3D computer animation,[2][3] and in medical fields such as burn reconstruction, infectious diseases, neurological conditions, and plastic surgery.[4] The "valley" refers to the dip in a graph of the comfort level of humans as subjects move toward a healthy, natural human likeness described in a function of a subject's aesthetic acceptability.

The term was coined by the robotics professor Masahiro Mori as Bukimi no Tani Genshō (不気味の谷現象) in 1970. The hypothesis has been linked to Ernst Jentsch's concept of the "uncanny" identified in a 1906 essay, "On the Psychology of the Uncanny".[5][6][7] Jentsch's conception was elaborated by Sigmund Freud in a 1919 essay entitled "The Uncanny" ("Das Unheimliche").[8]

Turns out, people don't like robots that become too human, because they're close, but not close enough. We react the same way to physical and mental deficits, subconsciously. That's what happens when scum try to come off as Town, instead of just playing the game as they would if they were Town. They seem off because they are off.

Remember where I said earlier that lies are easy to tell, but hard to tell convincingly?

Well, they're not hard to tell convincingly when they're not lies. So, as scum, either get the Town lying to itself, or, simply, be Town, and then you're not lying.

With that argument, you could make the claim that a scum-tell is in fact a town-tell due to the fact that real scum would never slip up like that. In that case, we shouldn't be hunting for people who slip up, we should hunt for people who don't, under the concept that they wouldn't allow themselves that slip. What's your opinion of this analysis?

I think you're over-thinking it.

Here's the thing: Town doing real scum-hunting often look like scum because they're not nice about it. They jump to conclusions, they point fingers at random or with no fact-basiss to back it up, they say stupid stuff, they contradict themselves.

In short: they're human.

What SBC described was perfectly the Uncanny Valley. He described scum being so careful to tend their words and deeds that they did none of those things above, because they know they're scum, and they don't want to look scummy.

But real players don't play that way, unless their new or naive or just bad at playing. Some players have very obvious scum-tells as part of their meta (see, Nerjin, it does play some value, even if it's a terrible thing to assume your fellow combatants are stupid).

Most players aren't that obvious. What looks like a good scum-tell, or a scum-slip, might just very well be them actively engaging in scum-hunting, or it might be a genuine tell, but without a Cop investigation, you'll never know, will you?

So, stop thinking so hard. Just pick a glass and drink the damn wine, because both glasses are poisoned, and the other guy's immune.

Alright, I agree that I wasn't really scum hunting in the early stages, wasn't even really here.

But let me ask you, was I correct? Against Caz, I pressured her to give me more, with the 'You are sticking out with like a sore thumb' post. She herself believed that she was acting scummy, but didn't mention she wasn't scum. It seemed weird to me, so I pushed it. She never replied iirc, and she died. I was correct that she was not scum... And it was too fast and too many. I'm going to hazard a guess that within the people who voted Caz, there is at least 1 scum. I'm going to guess 2.

It's easy in retrospect to say, "But I was right!" Hindsight is 20/20, but it's also not actually a defense of anything.

Caz actually said several times that he wasn't scum. In this post, there's an explicit town claim, in fact. Which just goes back to what I'm reading as your meta-style, that you don't really read the thread thoroughly, don't take notes, whatever it is. Maybe it's just that you're used to playing mafia at a faster pace, and keeping up with a forum game is too slow for you, or maybe it's something else entirely.

But here's the thing: you didn't get on Caz for acting scummy and not defending himself, or town-claiming (which he did), or any of that. You just... I dunno, pressed him a bit with the post you mentioned and then really didn't pursue anything at all. No vote on Caz, no pressure on anyone voting him, nothing. Just an RVS vote on TDS that sat for a long while before it was retracted under questioning.

Now Against TDS. He maintains an argument with Tiruin, Obviously deflects several of them, or doesn't answer them. At least not in a sensible way. He's not playing well. (But I guess he never has). It's not purely he is defensive that makes him seem weird to me, it is just a lot of things added together.

And here, you're doing something similar with TDS. And this isn't an explanation. What about his play seems "weird" to you, specifically? I know why it seems weird to me, I want to know why it seems weird to you. And I want to know why you seem to have a hard time answering that question. Examples and explanations, please?


NativeForeigner

ToonyMan is lying, Puffer didn't do anything.

Assuming that's true, why do you think ToonyMan would lie about that?

Interesting question, but why are you not asking ToonyMan? He seemed pretty adamant he'd caught Pufferfish in the act. If he's lying, I want to know why from him, not speculations from his accused. This isn't even a fair question to ask.

How about it, ToonyMan? Care to share now that you've been called out on the carpet?


+!!scientist!!+

I'll have you know that your name screws up my tracking spreadsheet. You don't compute.

1. I get the problems with Caz's statement that made you switch sides had a few problems, (while he didn't directly say he was town, he said but You switched sides so fast and didn't bother to answer the arguments he gave against you. That seems like a way of avoiding the argument. Also, if you knew that a lot of townies were lynching a townie, saying that the people voting were scum would be a good way of raising suspicions within the town. If you are scum, I suspect you saw your plan didn't work, saw that the guy was starting to accuse you and siding with him only made his argument better, and so decided to accuse him.

Same thing I addressed with SBC above. Caz did actually explicit Town-claim, as well as adamantly insist not-scum several times. How does that affect your assessment of SBC's answer?

PS: Makeinu, can you explain Uncanny Valley here. Because I don't want to re-explain my thinking here.

You mean this...

[spoiler=Uncanny Valley as it relates to mafia games]What you describe is the concept of the Uncanny Valley.

The uncanny valley is a hypothesis in the field of human aesthetics which holds that when human features look and move almost, but not exactly, like natural human beings, it causes a response of revulsion among some human observers. Examples can be found in the fields of robotics,[1] 3D computer animation,[2][3] and in medical fields such as burn reconstruction, infectious diseases, neurological conditions, and plastic surgery.[4] The "valley" refers to the dip in a graph of the comfort level of humans as subjects move toward a healthy, natural human likeness described in a function of a subject's aesthetic acceptability.

The term was coined by the robotics professor Masahiro Mori as Bukimi no Tani Genshō (不気味の谷現象) in 1970. The hypothesis has been linked to Ernst Jentsch's concept of the "uncanny" identified in a 1906 essay, "On the Psychology of the Uncanny".[5][6][7] Jentsch's conception was elaborated by Sigmund Freud in a 1919 essay entitled "The Uncanny" ("Das Unheimliche").[8]

Turns out, people don't like robots that become too human, because they're close, but not close enough. We react the same way to physical and mental deficits, subconsciously. That's what happens when scum try to come off as Town, instead of just playing the game as they would if they were Town. They seem off because they are off.

Remember where I said earlier that lies are easy to tell, but hard to tell convincingly?

Well, they're not hard to tell convincingly when they're not lies. So, as scum, either get the Town lying to itself, or, simply, be Town, and then you're not lying.

With that argument, you could make the claim that a scum-tell is in fact a town-tell due to the fact that real scum would never slip up like that. In that case, we shouldn't be hunting for people who slip up, we should hunt for people who don't, under the concept that they wouldn't allow themselves that slip. What's your opinion of this analysis?

I think you're over-thinking it.

Here's the thing: Town doing real scum-hunting often look like scum because they're not nice about it. They jump to conclusions, they point fingers at random or with no fact-basiss to back it up, they say stupid stuff, they contradict themselves.

In short: they're human.

What SBC described was perfectly the Uncanny Valley. He described scum being so careful to tend their words and deeds that they did none of those things above, because they know they're scum, and they don't want to look scummy.

But real players don't play that way, unless their new or naive or just bad at playing. Some players have very obvious scum-tells as part of their meta (see, Nerjin, it does play some value, even if it's a terrible thing to assume your fellow combatants are stupid).

Most players aren't that obvious. What looks like a good scum-tell, or a scum-slip, might just very well be them actively engaging in scum-hunting, or it might be a genuine tell, but without a Cop investigation, you'll never know, will you?

So, stop thinking so hard. Just pick a glass and drink the damn wine, because both glasses are poisoned, and the other guy's immune.

Alright, I agree that I wasn't really scum hunting in the early stages, wasn't even really here.

But let me ask you, was I correct? Against Caz, I pressured her to give me more, with the 'You are sticking out with like a sore thumb' post. She herself believed that she was acting scummy, but didn't mention she wasn't scum. It seemed weird to me, so I pushed it. She never replied iirc, and she died. I was correct that she was not scum... And it was too fast and too many. I'm going to hazard a guess that within the people who voted Caz, there is at least 1 scum. I'm going to guess 2.

It's easy in retrospect to say, "But I was right!" Hindsight is 20/20, but it's also not actually a defense of anything.

Caz actually said several times that he wasn't scum. In this post, there's an explicit town claim, in fact. Which just goes back to what I'm reading as your meta-style, that you don't really read the thread thoroughly, don't take notes, whatever it is. Maybe it's just that you're used to playing mafia at a faster pace, and keeping up with a forum game is too slow for you, or maybe it's something else entirely.

But here's the thing: you didn't get on Caz for acting scummy and not defending himself, or town-claiming (which he did), or any of that. You just... I dunno, pressed him a bit with the post you mentioned and then really didn't pursue anything at all. No vote on Caz, no pressure on anyone voting him, nothing. Just an RVS vote on TDS that sat for a long while before it was retracted under questioning.

Now Against TDS. He maintains an argument with Tiruin, Obviously deflects several of them, or doesn't answer them. At least not in a sensible way. He's not playing well. (But I guess he never has). It's not purely he is defensive that makes him seem weird to me, it is just a lot of things added together.

And here, you're doing something similar with TDS. And this isn't an explanation. What about his play seems "weird" to you, specifically? I know why it seems weird to me, I want to know why it seems weird to you. And I want to know why you seem to have a hard time answering that question. Examples and explanations, please?

Makeinu, I agreed with Caz's posts, up till the point where he threw up his arms, and said that he himself was scummy. It seemed to be me that either he was scum, and tried to throw in WIFOM, or gave up. As the day was ending, it seemed that he gave up, especially since he didn't even bother to come back and try to squeeze in a time.

For TDS: I addressed it in Tiruin's response above. ^

If you have questions, please asked.

Why do you think his play is wierd?

Also, the reason why my posts has been shit is because I've been getting re-revved up for school, and Usually BM comes up before Limerick, and by the time I do go through Limerick, I should be doing HW. >.>

After re-reading a little, I'd say I think the most townie of me is here. Because of the fact that I continued to vote TDS, in a way that Mafia would not buss. Meaning there was no reason to buss TDS, and if Someone wanted to, they could of pulled the vote off on TDS. I was also the 2nd to vote for him (After Tiruin, who kept voting, then unvoting, then voting, etc), the one who kept my vote on him the whole time.

There's not much other proof of myself being town other than that.

[NativeForeigner]

-snip-

But what makes the other two scum?

[Superblackcat]

That's what I'm trying to find!

[makeinu]

Ok, I'm confused for a variety of reasons, and while I have a lot of ideas swimming around in my head, I can't decide on who I think looks the most guilty.

How about starting with who looks frikkin' guilty at all? Because, right now, to me, you do. Despite what the logic of the situation tells me, that the setup dictates that there must be another town power role out there for this to happen, I'm having serious doubts over the fact that you're even still alive at this point. Jailkeeper is a seriously dangerous role for scum to face, and here we have a self-identified Jailkeeper that survived the night after he role-claimed.

Last night just adds to the confusion, because jailing ToonyMan seems to have stopped the killing, even though it really shouldn't have. I know that there are at least four town roles, and that means there has to be a JOAT, which means that my action should have done nothing. The final outcome, therefore, confuses me greatly.

What exactly are you trying to imply here? Why are you confused? One, the JOAT doesn't man  have automatic abilities, he has to declare the use of one of them. So, he'd have had to guess that you were going to JK ToonyMan and then declare a Strongman kill last night, for the outcome to be different.

Two, aside from that, what about the other possibilities? No one is confirmed town here, only strongly suspected, so what if any of the assumptions are wrong?


SBC:

After re-reading a little, I'd say I think the most townie of me is here. Because of the fact that I continued to vote TDS, in a way that Mafia would not buss. Meaning there was no reason to buss TDS, and if Someone wanted to, they could of pulled the vote off on TDS. I was also the 2nd to vote for him (After Tiruin, who kept voting, then unvoting, then voting, etc), the one who kept my vote on him the whole time.

Naturally you think yourself the most townie. Don't we all? What's the point here? We're not trying to figure out who's most townie, we're trying to find scum.

For the record, fixating on one target to the exclusion of all others, even when that target later turns out to be scum, doesn't make you look town. It makes you look single-minded and lucky.

What about EP makes him look scummy? What about NF makes him look scummy? Details, please, and stop trying to pass off "Well, I'm town so they must be scum" as an argument.

-snip-

But what makes the other two scum?

More, please. What suspicions roll around in that head? Who looks scummy to you? Why?

What makes you not scum?

Honestly, I get real life takes precedence, and I'm totally fine with that, but you presumably wanted to play here this round. I sense a logical mind and an intellect back behind there, but I'm not seeing any of that applied here. I'd very much like a bit of your time, if you don't mind.

I have a suspect for one scum, and a possible for the other. I'd like to wrap them both up, and lynch one of them today. In fact, we have to. We're at MyLo. If we lynch wrong, we lose tonight, almost certainly.

[Superblackcat]

any reason why you aren't mafia

That's exactly the question I answered.

And I'm currently working on it, however I do need replies if I were to get anywhere. There has not nearly been enough activity going on between the townies, (Except for you)

[NativeForeigner]

makeinu: Currently, I suspect scientist for reasons previously stated. I have another vague suspicion, but I want to see how that pans out before I expand on it.

As far as what makes me not scum, I've been a little to inactive to have anything that's worth pointing out to reinforce my townhood. I had a few good interactions in the earlier days, I accurately assisted with the scum lynch (which, really, is big whoop), and I avoided tying the vote. None of that is particularly convincing or concrete, but that's really all I've got beside the fact that I know I'm town.

I certainly wanted to play effectively, but life got a lot more hectic and the game moved a lot more quickly than I anticipated. I'm giving Mafia as much time as I can right now, I'm splitting my days between several important things right now.

[Elephant Parade]

Urgh. Sorry for the inactivity. I was unwinding after a stressful school week, and I didn't feel like doing much.

I can't really tell who is town and who is not. At this stage, there isn't any drama going on, and the Vanilla townies was not very involved in the last one...

Elephant Parade: Hey there! Any reason why you aren't mafia and 2 of the other three are?

This isn't even a question. I think that my actions speak for themselves, and I'm frankly too tired to go searching through my posts.

Please ask me a better question. This seems like an attempt at active-lurking to me.

I didn't action last night.  My plan was to bait the mafia into killing since they think the game would end if I were to kill as well, but that didn't end up happening it seems like!

I sadly can't confirm Scientist's block, since I received no PM, but I believe their claim of Jailkeeper and I can prove it in my thoughts below.

I wrote my thoughts down after Tiruin flipped SK:

///
The seven letters rolled:
HKK?

HKKP??? if Scientist is telling the truth (I believe they are...maybe...Pufferfish not using their ability on N1 is very suspicious).

Scum team has to be TTT or T with the SK flipped now.

If everybody is telling the truth then the letters we generated are HKKPTTT.  This means the scum have a goon and a JOAT left.

Scientist can't be lying because that would make 4 Ts and that doesn't have any serial killer...so Scientist is most likely telling the truth.  I hope he protects me Night 3. 

*Post-Edit*: It seems you did but not to protect me.

That also means out of the remaining players:

Elephant Parade
Superblackcat [E]
makeinu [E]
NativeForeigner

Two of these players are mafia, with at least one being a JOAT.
///


I don't believe Makeinu is mafia so the last two scum are in the group Elephant Parade, Superblackcat, and Nativeforeigner.

Elephant Parade, is Superblackcat or Nativeforeigner your buddy?  If you won't admit that, will you at least say who you find more suspicious?


As a side note, I will ridicule and make fun of people who vote me.  I am town.  On Day 2 DarkStar fake-claimed vig and I almost got lynched instead of him.  On Day 3 Tiruin fake-claimed vig and I almost got lynched instead of him.  I swear to God I am a town vigilante who hasn't shot for three days now.

I find Superblackcat more suspicious, as he hasn't been asking the best questions. NF's inactivity seems genuine to me.

Also, loaded question much.

ToonyMan, could you ask me more questions, please? You have been voting me for a while now, and yet you refuse to regularly ask me questions. You even threatened to nightkill me, for crying out loud. You're obviously suspicious, so why not try to confirm your suspicions by ASKING ME MORE QUESTIONS?

Also, why don't you think Makeinu is scum? Why do you keep targeting me instead of SBC? Why won't you do anything productive? I think you're trying to active-lurk by aggressively accusing me while and restating yourself repeatedly while not doing a whole lot else. I suppose you've also been determining letters, which is certainly useful, but not a replacement for actual scumhunting.

[ToonyMan]

Okay first, Makeinu isn't scum because his play all game has felt genuine and involved.  If he's scum then he got me, but I don't really see it...

Getting the scum reads of the final 3 suspects I think is vital, since as Makeinu pointed out and I seemed to not realize, is that today is mylo.  If we mislynch we'll be down to five, and if the mafia get a kill we'll be down to 4, which means town will lose.  I will almost certainly shoot tonight if we mislynch in the hopes of keeping the game alive.


Let's see the results!

Superblackcat:

FMPOV, it's gotta be 2 between makeinu, elephant, and NF. I'm more leaning for voting one of EP or NF.

The mafia are Elephant Parade and NativeForeigner.

NativeForeigner:

Currently, I suspect scientist for reasons previously stated. I have another vague suspicion, but I want to see how that pans out before I expand on it.

The mafia are Scientist and ???.

Elephant Parade:

I find Superblackcat more suspicious, as he hasn't been asking the best questions. NF's inactivity seems genuine to me.

Superblackcat is mafia, but not NativeForeigner.

If my suspicions are correct, two of these players are scum which means they would not vote their buddy if they're sane, since that would ruin their mylo and we have Scientist and me for them to worry about.

To put it into a riddle, we need to find out who is telling the truth of the three.  Let's first interpret what everybody is saying normally:

Superblackcat - "The other two townies besides Makeinu are mafia."  SBC's accusations perfectly line up with my kind of reasoning.  For what it is, I agree with this one the most.

NativeForeigner - "I agree with Makeinu, Scientist is really suspicious!"  I don't think Makeinu is scum, but I find his suspicions of Scientist as completely paranoid since it's only possible if one of the four vanilla townies is hiding their role for no reason whatsoever.  I will not allow a Scientist lynch.  I'm guessing NF's other suspect he's concealing might be me, since outside parties might think that Scientist and I are both lying in the most cleverest ploy ever, but sadly, this is not possible.

If Scientist and I were both lying, that would make 5 Ts, 5 Ts does have an SK, but only two mafia.  Since one mafia is already dead that means one of us would be town which is also, impossible in this case.

I guess it's possible Makeinu and Nativeforeigner are the scum team, but that's my least likely pick in the possibility of picks.

Elephant Parade - "Superblackcat would be one of the mafia, I don't think NativeForeigner is."  Similar to SBC's, but with a condition that NF is probably not mafia.  The middle ground of extremes between Superblackcat and Nativeforeigner.

Now let's reverse everybody's intentions:

Superwhitecat - "Elephant Parade and NativeForeigner are town."  This really doesn't make any sense.  If SBC is mafia they would have to be hiding their intentions on who actually is mafia, since one of Elephant Parade or NativeForeigner is almost certainly mafia.  This is a very common mafia tactic.

ForeignNative - "Scientist is town."  I can agree with this.  I suppose this also implies that the mafia would be two of the vanilla townies too, but I would be really twisting that implication out.  I think NativeForeigner (and Makeinu) is town or a pretty haughty mafia to blatantly suspect somebody who is almost certainly town.  Of course, if they both seriously try to vote Scientist I will retaliate and change my thoughts on the matter.

Donkey Parade - "Superblackcat is town, NativeForeigner is mafia."  Now here's the fun one.  Because of the contrasting choices, unlike SBC's we don't have much concealment here.  Since it would be stupid for mafia to lynch their own on mylo if EP is mafia then NativeForeigner is almost certainly their buddy.  They could be doing a concealment of intent, but I can't put too much concrete evidence on that when they're not voting anybody.

What do I gather from all of this?  More probable suspects.

SBC seems more scummy.
EP seems more townie (their response telling me to question them more is interesting).
NativeForeigner is town if they stop voting Scientist.  Wait, they aren't even voting Scientist?  NativeForeigner is scum until he votes somebody.


@Elephant Parade:
Here's a question, when are you going to vote somebody?

Also, to accuse me of lurking when everybody but me and SBC got prodded yesterday is humorous.

[Superblackcat]

Could you re-explain your case against me? Is this based off my suspicions? Because it seems like you want someone to suspect me, and because I don't suspect myself, I am scummy...