Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[TheDarkStar]

You're missing a very important point.

Which is? If you want me to answer a question, explain in greater detail what it is than "YOU'RE WRONG".

To clarify, you directed two questions at me, along with some comments that were not questions. I responded to the questions and did not respond to the comments that were not questions. What more do you want?

[makeinu]

Imperial Guardsman:
There is no cop in this setup. How is your question to Persus in any way relevant?

I was reading over the roles and noticed that the Hider is similar to a cop, except if they find mafia or an SK they die.

This is true and kind of interesting.  It's not as useful though since a good investigation (one that reveals scum) goes wasted since you die

Heh, you know, that actually makes the Hider kind of useless, come to think of it.

(stuff)

This is a whole lot of words just to say "yes I would shoot".  If you don't have a solid scum read then you're doing something wrong.

Meh. I like to think aloud.

[Tiruin]

So I read until here before my net decided to walk off on a vacation leaving me frustrated and seemingly like a jerk who doesn't update her work on time. >:I

Glad I kept a 20-tab list to...browse in the meantime. >_>

zombie urist

thedarkstar should respond to my post. http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=134151.msg4871504#msg4871504

As for Tiruin, here's why he must have simply mistyped or misread: The SK does not know how many mafia members there are and the mafia do not know if there is a serial killer. If he was scum, he still could not have actually told you. We can have anywhere between 2 and 3 mafia and 0 or 1 serial killer, but the fact that one is a certain way does not make the other a certain way.

Tiruin could be the sk.

Pretty passive-aggressive speculation/focus. Care to back it up?

No.

zombie urist: If you were scum, who would you kill N1? Why?

Someone random for maximum wifom.

Elephant Parade, how much do you use WIFOM and how do you normally apply it to situations?
Perseus, if you were Cop, who would you inspect N1?
makeinu, What do you think of Vigs?
Darkstar, you really seem to hate makeinu. Its almost like Lyncher play. Why?
Tiruin and Toony, what do you think of each others Mafia ( not the game, the informed minority inside of the game ) play?

Why are you asking RVS questions so late?

Defensive post, rhetorical questions, "yes you are scum" response? This isn't the town makeinu I know, sorry.

This is super lazy.

Ah, it's hard to tell for me just now. Unvote

Why'd you unvote immediately after? Who are your top suspects?

Brevity, then.

Your lack of words. They're lying down on deeper meaning as I see it. Lacking reason. Lacking rationality. Lacking public explanation.

Who do you seriously suspect other than someone who is missing a question? Your posts lack backing. Conviction. Flippant, even.
Lax.

But to keep this short, let me quote this a fortiori.

This is super lazy.

Point taken, I believe you did notice the 'hints' that TDS has been saying here, yes? Several hints pointing to him standing on his point, which you just say 'there's something else'? I mean, I can get the obscurity but I'm staring at that post and can't see nothing else but...that.
Literally, just that.

Imperial Guardsman

The problem is that your scum hunting is indistinguishable from scum play.

Maybe if you're not paying attention. Right now we are gathering valuable information on who likes to jump on bandwagons.

You're not helping add or gather information if you are just sitting in the corner.

Are what people say and do in this game really the same thing? Right now I'm looking at actions, and both you and makeinu smell like scum.

Caz, How exactly do they look like scum?

What's wrong with Caz' interpretation there that you word your reply like that?

Tiruin and Toony, what do you think of each others Mafia ( not the game, the informed minority inside of the game ) play?

...Of each others informed minority inside of the game play?

..Eh?
Rewording: What do you think of each others' Mafia play?
> ...I don't rely on metatells/metaknowledge, and by the by, I really don't know.
What I think, I pick out from what he gives in this game. I say what I give out. Why do you ask me on 'what I know about x and y''s gameplay?

People are just busy because of new years.

TBH, my net sucked the whole 3 or so days (and the prior week) so now I "haven't" updated everything I need to on this forum, and look like a lazy jerk!

Happy New Year by the way.


UI
I may be missing a bit of context but...

Imperial Guardsman:
There is no cop in this setup. How is your question to Persus in any way relevant? Similarly with TDS and the lyncher suggestion. Also, at this point there is definitely enough information on which to base a vote (as you yourself demostrated), so why are you asking RVS questions at this point?

Now I'm confused. Is the JK9++ (however its spelled) EXCLUSIVELY not holding this basis which is stated in the opening?

As in, all roles only here appear? Because given my role, I'm apt to be confused given that there are some similarities, and there are some exclusions too. >_>

And what I mean is...there is a cop if its not exclusive.

makeinu:

Same as my own speculation, and you seem worried at the prospect of an SK. Feeling out the Town to see how likely they are to believe your existence?

Your line of questioning here is dumb. Seriously, "you are worried about SK" -> "you are SK"? How does this make sense?

Actually, my point was more along the lines of the fact that she didn't seem worried about SK, she seemed certain of one. Same for a Mafia Bus Driver, not worried, but certain, that such exists.

Unless I'm misinterpreting the JK9++ setup, and I'm not, the only way to be certain of those is to be Mafia. I backed off because I'm willing to accept that I'm merely misunderstanding Tiruin here, but I still suspect more than meets the eye with her right now.

Why, yes makeinu. I'm actually an SK because of subconscious mistakes >_> Thank you for undermining my playstyle. I do muchly appreciate being wrongly second-guessed; while it'd make sense, I repeat that that intent what you guessed was never in my thoughts, or feelings, or emotions, or subliminal messaging system.

What do you actually suspect anyway? What parts give it off? Honestly, I may be a bit bothered from last game about 'being attacked for nebulous reasons' which may explain why I'm typing all this in transparency, but here I see serious suspicion. Like a gut suspicion.

So...yeah. *bolds emphasis*

makeinu

makeinu, What do you think of Vigs?

Hate them with a passion. If the Town can't win on scum-hunting and the lynch using logic, then a rogue gunman acting on his own accord can't fix that. I've never seen a case where a Vig didn't end up doing more harm than good. Never.

>_>
I detect some sorta continuous psychological bias there. What if someone here claims Vig, and is actually a vig--what was your first impression when you read this (sans the 'actually a-' part)


Toony
Here..
Cutting:

Do you think there is an sk in this game?  Because that is not a guaranteed possibility.

*sigh*
It would be hard to answer this with a Yes I do or a No I don't because I'm basing that notion on 'I'll be looking for proceeding notes'. Yes, I know it isn't guaranteed, but I can't say that I really think there is-with the underline for emphasis. I'm leaning on 'yeah let's think there is just for safety' but that does quite well nothing--which I didn't mention because it deals with nothing in its essence, if you somehow saw that kind of thinking back then, then a cookie for you because I really am sure I didn't type that out.

I was almost swayed by your emotional paragraphs[...]

...T_T
Thanks...

I don't think ZU usually busses on Day 1?  I guess you could press a case on a buddy but it seems unlikely.

I literally have no idea how ZU's playstyle conforms to. I'm guessing he's 'acting on the moment'-ish, looking at the scene if it directly favors him or not, in the present.

@Elephant Parade:

ToonyMan, you've only had one post so far, and all it contained was backing somebody else up and an unexplained assumption. Care to explain why you think Tiruin is scum (or SK) and that means ZU isn't?

When Tiruin explains their thoughts about this serial killer existence I can tell you.  I don't think ZU would attack Tiruin like this.

...You seriously are seeing it as an attack?

Ok, while my wording looks 'defensive' or whatever, I've worded it that was in assertion so I could at least get some kind of answer from him. Past experience dictates that my method of curious inquisition doesn't bring out much, so I decided to show the knife I have to increase my point--I get a 'No' for it. I did not see his subtle passive-aggressive note as a threat or an attack, however. Just attributed it to him being the usual 'oh x is like y, or x is likely a z' without doing anything about it.

I cannot say if it exists or not. I'm literally wondering now how big that effect holds onto everyone else given the questioning of 'DO YOU THINK IT EXISTS?!'

The only logical conclusion I see is people thinking 'Mm, x thinks the SK exists. Must probably be the SK'.

...Which I find confusing, really.

EXTEND.

PPEdit-past-the-header: Oh. Saw those extends.

@Imperial Guardsman:
Or did you mean what did I think of Tiruin's mafia play?  I think Tiruin has a pretty good mafia play until they claim they're mafia or third-party and get lynched.  Although that makes it a bit easier to win.

...Now you're referencing that LNCP game. >_>
Bleh.
...Ehh? Where in the world did I ever claim mafia before?

[Tiruin]

Also to be noted that I've only caught up until here until our net is fixed because it's more 'off' in the off/on relationship we have.

[makeinu]

makeinu:

Same as my own speculation, and you seem worried at the prospect of an SK. Feeling out the Town to see how likely they are to believe your existence?

Your line of questioning here is dumb. Seriously, "you are worried about SK" -> "you are SK"? How does this make sense?

Actually, my point was more along the lines of the fact that she didn't seem worried about SK, she seemed certain of one. Same for a Mafia Bus Driver, not worried, but certain, that such exists.

Unless I'm misinterpreting the JK9++ setup, and I'm not, the only way to be certain of those is to be Mafia. I backed off because I'm willing to accept that I'm merely misunderstanding Tiruin here, but I still suspect more than meets the eye with her right now.

Why, yes makeinu. I'm actually an SK because of subconscious mistakes >_> Thank you for undermining my playstyle. I do muchly appreciate being wrongly second-guessed; while it'd make sense, I repeat that that intent what you guessed was never in my thoughts, or feelings, or emotions, or subliminal messaging system.

What do you actually suspect anyway? What parts give it off? Honestly, I may be a bit bothered from last game about 'being attacked for nebulous reasons' which may explain why I'm typing all this in transparency, but here I see serious suspicion. Like a gut suspicion.

So...yeah. *bolds emphasis*

People do that, you know, make "subconscious mistakes". I don't see how pressing you to see if that's what's going on in your head is "undermining" your playstyle.

makeinu

makeinu, What do you think of Vigs?

Hate them with a passion. If the Town can't win on scum-hunting and the lynch using logic, then a rogue gunman acting on his own accord can't fix that. I've never seen a case where a Vig didn't end up doing more harm than good. Never.

>_>
I detect some sorta continuous psychological bias there.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. There are words, but they make no sense.

What if someone here claims Vig, and is actually a vig--what was your first impression when you read this (sans the 'actually a-' part)

Then they damn well better be hitting the right targets. I have, literally, watched the Town be destroyed by a Vig gone wrong. I won't sit by and watch that happen again.

[zombie urist]

Which is? If you want me to answer a question, explain in greater detail what it is than "YOU'RE WRONG".

I guess I should have read my own post. Something I thought I wrote somehow got deleted. Oops. 

Anyways you should answer this though.

Oh THAT question. Thanks for clarifying.
I ended up defending him because I saw ZU using a flawed argument against him. Just because someone else suspects Tiruin does not make him my friend; ZU could be mafia and trying to get someone lynched, or (if there is one) one could be the SK and one could be mafia.

What flawed argument would that be?

How is that not a rhetorical question? Caz answered it herself!

Why are you answering a rhetorical question then? Point I was trying to get at is that Caz wanted TDS to respond to him. So why did you respond to that?

Who do you seriously suspect other than someone who is missing a question? Your posts lack backing. Conviction. Flippant, even.
Lax.
But to keep this short, let me quote this a fortiori.

This is super lazy.

Point taken, I believe you did notice the 'hints' that TDS has been saying here, yes? Several hints pointing to him standing on his point, which you just say 'there's something else'? I mean, I can get the obscurity but I'm staring at that post and can't see nothing else but...that.
Literally, just that.

Apart from TDS, the people I suspect the most in no particular order are makeinu, Tiruin, and Persus. I don't suspect Toony and UI at all yet. I have no read on Elephant, SBC and Native. IG is kinda scummy and I'll look into him later.

I don't know what the latter half of what your saying means.

[Tiruin]

Then they damn well better be hitting the right targets. I have, literally, watched the Town be destroyed by a Vig gone wrong. I won't sit by and watch that happen again.

Then how the heck is the Vig going to get the right target if they don't think right?!
*looks at context*
Ah. Got'cha.

People do that, you know, make "subconscious mistakes". I don't see how pressing you to see if that's what's going on in your head is "undermining" your playstyle.

...I do know that people make subconscious mistakes--this is why I'm explaining that:
> It isn't a subconscious mistake to begin with given that it never entered my mind until I took some nice tea to think about it
And.
> You're assuming and concluding before questioning. The way you do so gives credence to my curiosity on your thought processes.

Because you seem to just be saying 'y'know, x happens...' and attaching another sentence as a general query.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. There are words, but they make no sense.

*points at your hate towards Vigs*
I guess that answers my question without answering it..directly >_>
ZU

Apart from TDS, the people I suspect the most in no particular order are makeinu, Tiruin, and Persus. I don't suspect Toony and UI at all yet. I have no read on Elephant, SBC and Native. IG is kinda scummy and I'll look into him later.

I don't know what the latter half of what your saying means.

Let me use your own communication so you'll understand.

Read my post again. You're missing something. Why do you suspect those people? Why do you not suspect those people? Why don't you have any read and why is someone 'kinda' scummy?

[Tiruin]

Right, technical terms.

makeinu

    I detect some sorta continuous psychological bias there.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. There are words, but they make no sense.

I think its this statement given that you snipped a nice part of it? Continuous psychological bias == 'This happened before and the effect was of such a significant value that I'm applying said happening to future, similar events while not taking (directly or at the moment) other points of view in looking at said event at the time being.'

Meaning: I see you sorta biased against 'Vigs' shooting townspeople...when it's pretty obvious that Vigs are..town.

[TheDarkStar]

Zombie Urist:

Apart from TDS, the people I suspect the most in no particular order are makeinu, Tiruin, and Persus. I don't suspect Toony and UI at all yet. I have no read on Elephant, SBC and Native. IG is kinda scummy and I'll look into him later.

Here's why you probably have your reads:

TDS (me): I didn't answer a question that it turns out you never wrote.
Tiruin: Suspects you
Persus: I have no idea, since I haven't seen any reasons given
Makeinu: The suspicions of other players

Also, there's this question:

Anyways you should answer this though.

Oh THAT question. Thanks for clarifying.
I ended up defending him because I saw ZU using a flawed argument against him. Just because someone else suspects Tiruin does not make him my friend; ZU could be mafia and trying to get someone lynched, or (if there is one) one could be the SK and one could be mafia.

What flawed argument would that be?

And here's my explanation from earlier:

As for Tiruin, here's why he must have simply mistyped or misread: The SK does not know how many mafia members there are and the mafia do not know if there is a serial killer. If he was scum, he still could not have actually told you. We can have anywhere between 2 and 3 mafia and 0 or 1 serial killer, but the fact that one is a certain way does not make the other a certain way.

Tiruin:

Meaning: I see you sorta biased against 'Vigs' shooting townspeople...when it's pretty obvious that Vigs are..town.

I think he means that vigs tend to fire randomly,and it is usually more likely for a vig to hit a town person than a scum person. I'm just guessing, though.

[TheDarkStar]

Zombie Urist:

Apart from TDS, the people I suspect the most in no particular order are makeinu, Tiruin, and Persus. I don't suspect Toony and UI at all yet. I have no read on Elephant, SBC and Native. IG is kinda scummy and I'll look into him later.

Here's why you probably have your reads:

TDS (me): I didn't answer a question that it turns out you never wrote.
Tiruin: Suspects you
Persus: I have no idea, since I haven't seen any reasons given
Makeinu: The suspicions of other players
IG: Other people suspect him

Also, there's this question:

Anyways you should answer this though.

Oh THAT question. Thanks for clarifying.
I ended up defending him because I saw ZU using a flawed argument against him. Just because someone else suspects Tiruin does not make him my friend; ZU could be mafia and trying to get someone lynched, or (if there is one) one could be the SK and one could be mafia.

What flawed argument would that be?

And here's my explanation from earlier:

As for Tiruin, here's why he must have simply mistyped or misread: The SK does not know how many mafia members there are and the mafia do not know if there is a serial killer. If he was scum, he still could not have actually told you. We can have anywhere between 2 and 3 mafia and 0 or 1 serial killer, but the fact that one is a certain way does not make the other a certain way.

Tiruin:

Meaning: I see you sorta biased against 'Vigs' shooting townspeople...when it's pretty obvious that Vigs are..town.

I think he means that vigs tend to fire randomly,and it is usually more likely for a vig to hit a town person than a scum person. I'm just guessing, though.

Fixed.

[Tiruin]

That ain't right...

[Persus13]

It still isn't fixed.

[makeinu]

How is that not a rhetorical question? Caz answered it herself!

Why are you answering a rhetorical question then? Point I was trying to get at is that Caz wanted TDS to respond to him. So why did you respond to that?

Rhetorical questions are, by definition, not intended to engender a response, so I doubt highly that Caz expected a response to it at all. I could, of course, be putting thoughts into her head; only she can say one way or the other.

As to why I answered it, because I wanted to add my own thoughts. You seem to have a problem with my play style.

Right, technical terms.

makeinu

    I detect some sorta continuous psychological bias there.

I don't even understand what you're saying here. There are words, but they make no sense.

I think its this statement given that you snipped a nice part of it? Continuous psychological bias == 'This happened before and the effect was of such a significant value that I'm applying said happening to future, similar events while not taking (directly or at the moment) other points of view in looking at said event at the time being.'

Meaning: I see you sorta biased against 'Vigs' shooting townspeople...when it's pretty obvious that Vigs are..town.

Don't, just don't, pull out the psychoanalysis. I've made my point pretty clear about why I feel the way I do about Vigs. Vigs are Town, but they often don't act in the Town's best interests.

Solo kill power means that a Vig gets to make judgement calls about who is and is not scum without any consultation or discussion involved. And, at the risk of someone getting irritated by the, how well did that work out for Town in Paranormal 23 again?

JK9++ setup basically guarantees a Tracker, a Role Cop, and a Hider, and gives 50/50 chance of a Serial Killer and the same odds for a Vig.

Assume the SK exists. Assume the Vig exists.

Between the lynch, the mafia NK, the Vig, and the SK, that's four kills by D2. Likeliest case scenario, statistically, is four scum counting the SK. We know the Mafia will NK Town, unless they hit the 1:13 odds and catch the SK. The SK has 70% chance of hitting Town, and he doesn't care who he kills. The Vig also has 70% chance of hitting Town; give him 50% assuming some amount of logic and critical thinking.

Best case scenario for Town: a proper lynch and blind luck means all three scum die N1, and we can all pat ourselves on the back for how well we played.

Likelier scenario: one scum and three Town die N1. Ratio is 6:2:1, Town/scum/SK.

Repeat D2/N2. 3:1:1.

Mislynch D3 means D4 dawns with the Town losing.

And that's not all that unlikely a scenario. That is why I harped at you over what I saw as a possible mental slip regarding an SK. That is why I'm concerned that we do have a Vig.

[Tiruin]

Don't, just don't, pull out the psychoanalysis. I've made my point pretty clear about why I feel the way I do about Vigs. Vigs are Town, but they often don't act in the Town's best interests.

...That's really a nebulous stance there.

OK, Assume that there IS a Vig.

How can YOU tell if the target himself/herself is scum or not?

How does it exactly help town when all you're standing on is 'I saw townies die more than scummies!'
 
How does it exactly help, when nobody has even proposed--even in an RVS question--a 'Tiruin, if you were the Vig, how would you go about using your kill?'
Well let my answer my own hypothetical question! I'll not kill on N1 unless I'm more than sure x is scum, where x is my target! Saving my kill for last will be a LYLO breaker--yet even then I'd not be sure.

Hence the best possible way is to kill whenever the situation seems fresh, meaning: viable.

Explain to me with solid backing why a Vig isn't pro-town, from that gist there.

[Caz]

Damn new years. Should be back on regular-ish posting schedule now.

How is that not a rhetorical question? Caz answered it herself!

Why are you answering a rhetorical question then? Point I was trying to get at is that Caz wanted TDS to respond to him. So why did you respond to that?

Rhetorical questions are, by definition, not intended to engender a response, so I doubt highly that Caz expected a response to it at all. I could, of course, be putting thoughts into her head; only she can say one way or the other.

No, not the mind probe! Didn't we have enough of that last game? -_-  I disagree with zu though, detecting malice from that question answer is a bit of a stretch. Though a response from TDS would be sweet... unless he did one already and I missed it somewhere.

Likelier scenario: one scum and three Town die N1. Ratio is 6:2:1, Town/scum/SK.

Repeat D2/N2. 3:1:1.

Mislynch D3 means D4 dawns with the Town losing.

And that's not all that unlikely a scenario. That is why I harped at you over what I saw as a possible mental slip regarding an SK. That is why I'm concerned that we do have a Vig.

This is also taking into account that the vig survives two days of shenanigans all while being hilariously innacurate. I agree vig shouldn't shoot if he's just going to flip a coin, but if we lynch right today there's a better chance of hitting scum, especially when we consider the votes etcetc. Lynching is hardly more accurate, especially in the beginning.

@NativeForeigner, Caz:
Vote somebody.

Also Caz you're up for lynch and day ends tomorrow.  I don't feel particular to wasting my extend, so I think you should do the extend by tomorrow as punishment for being scummy.

Yes mother. ._.

Concerned that if I vote we'll go into a tie situation. At least on my death we get some info, no? Will draw up a spreadsheet and make my vote before day's end probably.

and yea, caz invokes Extend