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[TheDarkStar]

Toony's reactions to the votes and questions is simply too collected. Even the best scum players get rattled, and I'm not seeing any rattling here except on Toony's cage, to which he's simply not reacting. Plus, he's offered up a role-claim if he's lynched, and I've seen Toony do just that before when he wasn't even the lynch target, so I believe he'll do it. A role-claim under those circumstances does scum no good, because... well, because. They're going to flip, and put the lie to the claim immediately. That's serious town action there, and that would make his bluff on Pufferfish even bolder.

So, you're using meta to defend him. Toony obviously lied, because why would a town person want to get rid of random people?

There wasn't really anything in defense of TheDarkStar, save his own post, which was surprisingly more wordy than his usual. He tries to give reasons, but they just come across as defensive and deflective of suspicion back to ToonyMan. He even pulls a self-meta with his noted vote flightiness.

And that's where I get stuck with a tunnel vision warning. I always see TDS as flighty and promiscuous with his vote, and so tend to dismiss that as a scum-tell with him. But when he self-metas with it, it's now referential because it becomes WIFOM. Sort of. I think.

What are you trying to say here? I might have a flighty meta, but Toony does not.

And then I go back and have questions about the rest of that post.

Unvote. I can't in good conscience let a tie vote stand, not when I'm not 100% convinced the party I'm voting for is guilty. And Toony is acting too town for me to think it's an act. On the flip side of that, I'm still not convinced TDS is scum. He's playing what I'm taking as his normal game, and I just can't get a read on him. Not like I did the last game we played together. He hasn't done anything so blatant as he did that game, and I can't decide if it's just bad play, scummy, or scum that I'm getting off him.

Somebody give me arguments I'm wrong either way.

Here's a reason: Toony tried to get someone mislynched. While that person might have been able to respond within a short time, almost any denial on their part would have been seen as scum lying. Also, why would he care about a roleclaim as town? He also took a while to reveal that he was lying, but only after drawing questioning.

And then there's what I've done: Responded to criticism after a pressure vote. And yet, I'm the one getting voted for, while he gets to live.

Another reason:

Also, vote DarkStar because I'm not scum and his vote is by far the weakest on me (even Tiruin defends me!).

My votes might be flighty, but that is not a reason to vote for me. I still try to get rid of the scummy people, unlike Toony, who tried to get a random person dead.

Numerous problems I have with this part of this post. Aside from the general defensiveness and deflection.

One. Picking nits, maybe, but why change the color on my quoted Unvote, but not on ToonyMan's vote on you? If I were to speculate, I'd guess afraid that Toaster would have see the red Unvote and think it was your vote, not mine, but would assume you wouldn't vote for yourself. So, why then not just snip it out? Other parts of the post were snipped... I'm treading into WIFOM territory, trying to think what you're thinking when you're doing something.

Two. The use of the phrase "tried to get someone mislynched", just bugs me. There's no proof that Pufferfish/scientist is town, and Toony seemed genuinely suspicious, though I don't really remember if he stated why (not digging back, it's getting late). You seem, with this, dead set that makes ToonyMan scum, not merely scummy, and I ... fear is not quite the right word but it'll have to do for now ... fear certainty in a lynch vote without evidence or at least a strong case to back that certainty up. And you present with certainty that ToonMan is trying to lynch a townie, not just a "random player" as you play it off later.

Three. As I said above, a role-claim done the way Toony presented it is a very solid town tactic. If I'm about to get lynched as town, there's every reason for me to role-claim, especially if I have a power role. That doesn't work for a scum-bluff because they're going to flip on lynch and put the lie to their attempted role-claim.

Four. He explains why he took time in responding, yet you don't acknowledge that. Yes, it might be bullshit, he might've just been attempting to scum-lurk, but coupled with the above bits, I can't see that being the case.

All the evidence I see belies my belief that you're just playing to your meta, and instead points to you being mafia, TheDarkStar.

1. Why do you even care that I changed the colors? I actually just missed the other red vote; I change them as a rule to make the lurker tracker work better and to make it easier to see what I voted for. This is not actually a reason to lynch me.

2. +!!scientist!!+ is definitely town; either Toony is town or +!!scientist!!+ is, and we've already seen that Toony is probably scum. This is why I wrote that he was town.

3. He roleclaimed the minute he wrote the post accusing Pufferfish/+!!scientist!!+, not after people started asking questions. Why are you so defensive of him all the time? It's not like you're working with him, riiiiight?

4. I've shown that lurking could be the case.

Now, why don't you lynch Toony (and then makeinu, after Toony's role is revealed)? They seem the most likely two people to be scum. If I had to guess, the other scum would either be Elephant Parade (randomly accusing +!!scientist!!+/Pufferfish) or Tiruin (long rage posts directed only to me).

Please, review your arguments and stop voting for the wrong guy. I want to stay alive and make sure Toony dies, but you're all busy killing me.

[Tiruin]

Well, to be frank, TDS, I am a formatting adept here on the forums and I can quite say that the intentional change of color is quite suspicious--not a scumtell, but it iscurious. Why are you going on the defensive other than explaining why you did so?

So, you're using meta to defend him. Toony obviously lied, because why would a town person want to get rid of random people?

"Get rid" is quite the juxtoposition from what Toony had posted. What made you think the extremes here? I also like how you quotemine and direct the focus on that specific part of makeinu's intent rather than note the larger details that he's trying to say.

What are you trying to say here? I might have a flighty meta, but Toony does not.

You know that being jumpy doesn't give good credibility to how serious your vote is-even when you don't detail the reasons behind it, right?
But he does have a point, makeinu--TDS has been honest so far about himself (even said he's somewhat [or so I remember] scummy in his own personal read of himself...without detailing it yet again.)

1. Why do you even care that I changed the colors? I actually just missed the other red vote; I change them as a rule to make the lurker tracker work better and to make it easier to see what I voted for. This is not actually a reason to lynch me.

Challenge his assumption instead of putting the label of 'This isn't a reason to lynch me'. HEY, that's a good deal though! Why haven't you ever thrown me that label instead?
Anyways, the lurkertracker traces the most recent note in red. I find it confusing how a change in color messes...your lurkertracker. Care to detail it?

2. +!!scientist!!+ is definitely town; either Toony is town or +!!scientist!!+ is, and we've already seen that Toony is probably scum. This is why I wrote that he was town.

How is scientist definitely town?

3. He roleclaimed the minute he wrote the post accusing Pufferfish/+!!scientist!!+, not after people started asking questions. Why are you so defensive of him all the time? It's not like you're working with him, riiiiight?

What roleclaim? I'm blind. Show me in my face.

4. I've shown that lurking could be the case.

...You did? How?

Now, why don't you lynch Toony (and then makeinu, after Toony's role is revealed)? They seem the most likely two people to be scum. If I had to guess, the other scum would either be Elephant Parade (randomly accusing +!!scientist!!+/Pufferfish) or Tiruin (long rage posts directed only to me).

How about we lynch you for being an idiot? I'm scum for accusing you like this, aren't I? Mhmm.
I can't fathom why you're chain-linking people like so, but how you trace them are really vague. You lack backing in any sort of purpose or method in detailing these suspects (Like Elephant Parade...really. What's this kind of case?) Or me (haha, I 'rage' at you. I've been nice to you so far, buddy. If you don't like me now, then You won't like seeing me mad. Tiny tip: I don't format or enlarge my words when I'm mad.

I can slather you with words that stay bound by forum rules, but would make the most swarthiest of high-sea sailors blush. I can cut all expletives, and yet make my words as pointy as the judge's verdict. Back up your case or face the noose, for I've seen too much of your mudslinging and misleading for this game to make sense that you are town. I've read your case from all types of shoes, and while some may be positive, the note of your behavior doesn't help at all. You feel cornered that you don't reply to someone you /assume/ is "angry" at you? Talk to them. If you think I'm attacking you as the person, then you could at least have the sense to ask--I attack you, because of your playstyle, as a player.)

I get no response at all. Not even a chip off that block.

What if Toony is town? How will you react?

And there you go again ignoring me. Hello? See me 'rage'ing?
Stupid people sometimes. Always assuming. >_>
^ That, can be considered as 'rage', but I am never angry. It is my formatting, and your assumptions, mister dark star.

Please, review your arguments and stop voting for the wrong guy. I want to stay alive and make sure Toony dies, but you're all busy killing me.

Here's a hint. Try to stay alive by proving yourself innocent instead of pleading or appealing to emotion or decision--we don't know you're town, and your behavior (arguably, to me, for all involved) has gone far south that I've tried to consult any sort of direction.

Yet you ignore me. Let me try to use your kind of logic: Why would a townsperson ignore me? Isn't it in the minds of an innocent to address that which incriminates him?
I get nothing, not even a reason why you ignore me. Call me scum for that? I don't see it.

Posting reads next post. Hopefully net won't die.

[Tiruin]

So my reads have hardly changed from back here. scientist/Pufferfish has gained a positive light, so I'm shoving him to the grey-green zone border for this time being--my beliefs are that while he may be descriptive (something I adore), there are certain somethings going on between him and Toonyman. The other involved, however, also remains in the green zone, probably tied in with scientist...with how recent events played out.

But details, details:

scientist, I've to note, has stated that he "has a good read of what happened."[generally read the thread and got caught up with the stuffs] A query to him stands: Why vote for Superblackcat, scientist? Surely stuffs before your grand entrance dictates you having suspects before the spotlight shifts, right?

Elucidate me, my fellow seeker of knowledge. Perhaps I must ask of your reads to gain clarity on your labyrinthian mind, yes?


makeinu is staying quite along on the green-side, moreso against the audience, the most on that zone given his play and his words. I find little discrepancy with how he acts (...despite some drama... :I )in how it conforms to scumplay--no deviations in how words are put, nor do I see any withheld commentaries or verbal sleights. He's drawing quite well in my eyes, and I am pleased with his aesthetics.

Though I'd love to see that alleged spreadsheet there.


UI/Hapah: after looking back at UI's notes [starting at (3)], I find some certain questions of his in the RVS quite telling. Most were subtle 'rolefishies' to detail the concept of words behind the words. Some are veiled, and some...are blatant. Though I'd argue that he wanted to see how the person thought, though (except for that thing on Persus. Either he was joking, or Persus is actually lactose intolerant) His proceeding posts [UI, not Hapah-this good man gets his own spotlight later] have the detail of an investigator [the essence of one--like IRL, not a PR or whatever]. He scrutinizes, and checks how others' motives go, playing the early game with a studying feel than anything else. But before I judge him, let's look at the spotlight:

The whole thing of TDS and me started with him,(yes, TDS, this started DAY TWO and not since DAY ONE. Back in Day1, you had a certain impact on me, here and in other posts that got me curious about you. You were playing well, and with ascertainty and acumen of a real player--the acumen of a townie, for the ability to explain well the stance of a discoverer. Someone who wants to find other than conceal. Things like these are why I decided to poke you, TDS. To be honest, a saving grace was me re-reading that BM I had with Imp. 'How far will you go to be sure if this person is scum or not?' is the question that hit me, and is still hitting me regarding you.

...And here I go again thinking on 'the heck am I doing. TDS is actually trying and I don't even him as scum despite him ignoring me and doing the defensive thing. It's more personal than not and arhghgghh. I just...don't know. Why can't he. Respond to me.). It would do little honor to give UI crewman the lacking acknowledgements he deserves, however. I don't expect TDS to reply that much to me, however that's my jaded side speaking.

Anyway--the spotlight. The 'Caz' parable:

Spoiler: spoilered because details. :I !!THIS IS CRUCIAL!! (click to show/hide)

The attack. 1st note on Caz. Details start at concern for the vote. The lynch. The knowledge. Pretty shaky ground, so let's look at the timing.

The origin. Where it all starts: I do note that both parties fail to acknowledge the presence of Caz' "EXTEND" right there. He even did it in third person, which is quite cute of him.
He responds in turn, and..yeah it looks weird. :I But still. It makes sense.
Problem: He never responded to the initial attack, favoring the proceeding post. He should've been reminded on that.
UI did not. (Well, Caz didn't either, but the point lies. Nobody questioned the origin, and its attack.)

The case. It continues and 'originates' here due to nobody questioning the roots instead. Seems like a covert slip? Maybe? Well UI noted it anyway. He knew Caz extended (and..literally, everyone did at the time, maybe. Nobody talked about -that- part). Aaaand I think all y'all missed my note on asking you why Caz is being voted. I believe I was being too general, huh? I didn't get any answer though, and since UI can't speak (being a personal case), I assume he was busy getting his read on Caz too much. Or pushing it.

But anyway, back to timeline:
The origin starts at « Reply #194 on: January 03, 2014, 12:12:50 am »
My extend is at « Reply #182 on: January 02, 2014, 09:39:41 pm », only 3 hours before his extension.
Day end? As used here in detail?
"Day 1 will last until Friday, 1/3 at 11 PM EST.
"
Yes. January 3 at 11 PM, EST [Eastern standard time]. That's exactly to 4am, the next day, in GMT +0:00 (Greenwich Mean time [not mediterranean time...unlike what I believed before >_>) Meaning. I'd know, and it be ending at 12am, noon at the time being (My time is GMT +8. Forum time is GMT -3, 11 hours behind my time).

Meaning//tl;dr
The origin, is a lie.
This game does not run on hammers. It runs on timers. Such a glaring accusation as this should've been noted.
It was not. By ANYONE.


But I digress. Surely there are other notes:
the duel continues on, focused on the different tangent, other than the original one (ie You have voted to tie at 'x' time and 'y # of extends were given BUT-')

And the next part. After Caz...humorously(?) admits shtuff, ("you got me boss"), the note or intent of UI is shown. This thing.
A total shift from the origin I checked above.

Blah blah stuff happens in between...silence occurs, extensions were given... then Caz shifts to makeinu..and the duel is cancelled. No other note between D1-Caz and UI comes.
Other stuff of note:
This. Tiny thing on Caz' thoughts. His own silliness (...I think I'm growing fond of him. Help.) didn't help him either, back then.
...And poof. Day end. Caz shifts his ideals on IG, and bam.
To note: UI disappeared..since then.
The stuff below 'other stuff' are just for reference and personal notation

Unless I am blind, and unless there is no kind of forum default setting for the time, and unless I am totally getting what happened before--that Caz thing--in the spoiler wrong, then please.
Anyone.
Correct me. I have this timezone thing that is my penchant to check more than not, yet I am also prone to error, yet this discovery...unnerves me.

Hapah. As UI's replacement, you may have little say in this case, yet as the current holder of UI's alignment, I have to ask--what are your reads on everyone; what is your reads on those replacements' replacement?

makeinu: Your spreadsheet. I believe that's a list of notes and all. Why have you not caught onto this find? What is your spreadsheet about, and what does it concern? Vote patterns? Because if you could make a note for me (thanks :>) or scientist's own confusion on said spreadsheet, (yeah I read your reply to him in stereotypical russian..it's quite amusing and nice in that accented english).
I'd like to hear from you.

[Tiruin]

Dammet. Y my first link = my lurkertracker copy-paste link :v

This is the link to my reads before.

[Tiruin]

Aaaaaand I forget NativeForeigner.

...
...
He's in the grey zone.
Starting at [2]: I really missed this guy :S And his old black and white avatar of a detective and a fedora...And I just caught onto the post where he only uses the forums for Mafia. I'll really miss you NF, even though we only know each other here. Through this game. Only. 

Anyways, for him, he...erh, his behavior it seems to be going more with the flow than not, attacking those with suspicions--blatantly, as is seen by the note on IG and proceeding posts on how it stuck on him. There is a hint of reactionism, instead of investigating through the lines--a tad superficial, but not so that I detect malice. I don't also feel like he's playing it straight and coasting along, agreeing and targeting the 'weak links'. There is that note on how he reacts D2, to the UI/TDS thing.

When i say superficial...I partly mean how the wording is presented. Another note, but still not enough of a tell other than a seeker.

His last post states busy-busy, so I look forward to him later on.
NF: I'd also like to see your account on the UI-Caz//Tir-TDS deal.

[Tiruin]

Holy bricks and cheese.

HAPAH: Tell me. Reword THIS POST on the things you say about numbers and stuff, because...getting from context:

Concerning Roles: I think it's useless to speculate on roles at this point. There are up to 5 town power roles left, to say nothing of a scum JOAT or SK. There's just too many unknown to draw any meaningful conclusions. (though I did find it interesting that SK's were discussed much more than Vig's early in the day)

I've underlined and orange'd the thing that caught my eye to the previous statement--can you reword the orange part? The underlined part is...confusing.

But anyway:

Spoiler: I be organizing ye playerlist (click to show/hide)

Elephant Parade
2. Persus13  Hider
3. Tiruin [E]
4. TheDarkStar
5. Superblackcat [E]
6. Pufferfish  +!!scientist!!+
7. Imperial Guardsman  Townie
8. zombie urist  Townie
9. makeinu [E]
10. Urist Imiknorris  Hapah
11. ToonyMan [E]
12. NativeForeigner
13. Caz  Vengeful  [E]

1. Elephant Parade
3. Tiruin [E]
4. TheDarkStar
5. Superblackcat [E]
6. Pufferfish > +!!scientist!!+
9. makeinu [E]
10. Urist Imiknorris > Hapah
11. ToonyMan [E]
12. NativeForeigner

There are 9 people.
3 are scum.
There are 6 people left.
Why in the nine rings of unearth do you state a certain five? (I suppose this is where the underlined part comes in but blargh. I don't get it right. "To say nothing"? 'To say' comes off to me as 'supposing there is', but it doesn't generally have that meaning to me [initial meaning and stuff like that] but...its like 'words betwix the lines').

What is this. Reword if misinterpreted.

[Tiruin]

Also what is your concern with the discussion of SK > Vig? It is a probability, and an interesting topic to speak of, given the note of SK shtuff. If you'd ask me, an SK is like a miller-vig, but blargh that. Deviating from the point:

Why the interest? What can you draw from it?

PFP - I think my net died.

[Tiruin]

So minor correction, in the spoiler, it should be '[...]12pm, noon[...]'.

>_>
PFP - Net has now flatlined.

[Hapah]

PFP

Sure, Tir. I said:

"Concerning Roles: I think it's useless to speculate on roles at this point. There are up to 5 town power roles left, to say nothing of a scum JOAT or SK. There's just too many unknown to draw any meaningful conclusions. (though I did find it interesting that SK's were discussed much more than Vig's early in the day)"

With the bolded part causing you issues. Town can have up to 7 power roles (see the Randomization section in the setup rules). Since we've already lost 2 (Vengeful and Hider), there can be at most 5 more. And with up to 5 power roles left, a possible SK (about a 50/50, yeah?), and chances of a Mafia JOAT (which can bypass protects), we can't really draw any meaningful information right now about having 2 deaths unless someone caught the Hider visiting someone that wasn't ZU. And since nobody has come forward with that, it's probably best to leave role speculation alone for the time (not that anyone is really investigating it anymore anyway).

[Toaster]

Vote Count:

Elephant Parade: 
Tiruin: 
TheDarkStar:  Superblackcat, ToonyMan, Hapah, makeinu
Superblackcat: 
+!!scientist!!+: 
makeinu: 
Hapah:  Tiruin
ToonyMan:  TheDarkStar, +!!scientist!!+
NativeForeigner: 

No Lynch:

Not Voting:  Elephant Parade, NativeForeigner


Day 2 will last until Thursday, 1/16 at 11 PM EST, about 8 hours from now.

[TheDarkStar]

I might roleclaim soon, depending on how this goes. Revealing my role might get me dead tonight, so I hope we have a doctor.

[Hapah]

PFP

Do you still have your extend? Will you be around this afternoon/evening to answer questions and whatnot?

[TheDarkStar]

PFP

Do you still have your extend? Will you be around this afternoon/evening to answer questions and whatnot?

Who? If you're referring to me, then yes and yes.

[Hapah]

PFP

Yup you and great. Work's been a pain today but I'll present my reasons for voting you sometime after I get off. What do you think of my reasoning for Toony probably being town?

[+!!scientist!!+]

I might roleclaim soon, depending on how this goes. Revealing my role might get me dead tonight, so I hope we have a doctor.

Seeing as how you have two more votes than anyone else, we're within 8 hours of the day's end, I'd suggest that, whatever you're going to do, be it extend, roleclaim, or scumhunt, you do it soon.

Also, could someone please tell what "PFP" means? I feel like an idiot for asking as it's probably obvious, but I can't see how it relates to anyone's username and the mafia wiki's page of abbreviations gave no hints.

Bigger post coming after I write it.