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Author Topic: EVE For Free(Possibly)  (Read 9871 times)

LordBucket

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2013, 11:09:01 pm »

The overwhelming majority of moon-goo is worth almost nothing, there's VERY few truly profitable moons... and they are firmly in control of whatever giant ubercorp controls null at the moment and you have realistically 0 chance of taking any of them over unless you had hundreds of people with years (RL years) of skill training (and even, if by some miracle you took one over you'd NEVER hold it).

There are profitable reactions that don't require technetium. It was my impression that there are still moons with platinum and vanadium in the hands of corporations with fewer than 50 members. As you say, trying to take a moon in alliance sovereign space is probably not a good idea. But I think there are profitable opportunities in lowsec for reasonably small corps. Scan around sometime. There are plenty of active PoS out there, and I assume they're not all exclusively doing blueprint research.

It's not going to fund 50 PLEX/month. But it can probably be worth a couple extra billion ISK per month.



I doubt I could get into moon mining quickly enough given
my current skills even if it was worth it.

If you're generating 25 PLEX/month, buying highly skilled characters is very doable. Checking prices...here's a 45 million skillpoint character with a 15 billion ISK buyout. That's probably 2-3 years worth of skill training for about 25 PLEX.

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I am planning on using planetary interaction

People in corp report being able to make 1.8bil a month with main and 2 alts

...oh, is that all this is? Yes, I can do 200 million ISK/month on a single character even in highsec with PI skills at 3 and 4, and that's doing exclusively level 2 commodities. Really taking it seriously with three characters on one account all in w-space...I've never done it myself, but I can see how 1.8 billion/month might be possible.

But PI is a lot more tedious and time consuming than it might at first appear. Doing it in a wormhole...logistics becomes problematic. And if you're doing it in lowsec, that means hauling hundreds of millions of ISK at a time in an industrial through dangerous space. I'm sure there are people who do it, but you might want to actually try it out for a few months before you start handing out PLEXs to start a corporation.

Even if we assume 1.8 billion ISK/month per account, rounding down from current prices down to 600 million ISK per PLEX, that's three PLEX. One to keep the account active, plus two extras. So to get 24 PLEX/month you'd need twelve accounts, each with three characters. Since each charcter will need one PLEX for multi-character training to get the PI and hauling skills required to do this, that's 36 PLEX to get started, and 36 characters worth of PI every month once you're established. You can probably reset your extracators in 5 minutes day per character. 36 characters, that's 3 hours a day, which is 21 hours/week. But if you're doing high level reactions, you'll need to move around materials probably once or twice per week. That can be an extra 10-15 minutes per character. And with 36 characters, you're probably not going to be able to fit them all in a single wormhole due to diminishing returns. There's a finite amount of resource generated per planet and if you have that many characters all mining the same planet...you're unlikely to get a high return. So that means spreading characters out over multiple systems, which is impractical in a wormhole. And even if you move your operation to low/null, having to move around between systems is going to take time. Even assuming you can get it down to 10 minutes twice a week per character, that's 12 hours per week simply moving your materials around between planets for processing into higher level commodities. And then even after all that...you still need to move the finished goods to market. How long is that going to take? Setting aside the problems associated with w-space, assuming low/null systems reasonably close to a market hub, let's conservatively say an hour every month per character. So an extra 36 hours/month hauling which is 9 hours/week.

When I add up those numbers, I get ~42 hours per week doing PI in order to get 24 PLEX/month.

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I have reliable intel of a 2 account PI player in the alliance the wormhole corp is in only
spending less than 2 hours a day working and getting 1.2bil on each account

So it's taking him even more time than I'm estimating. If "less than two hours a day" is an hour and a half for two accounts, doing it with 12 accounts works out to 9 hours a day.

Just how much time were you planning to invest in this?

MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2013, 02:14:19 am »

You can generate 1 plex per character. It costs 1 plex per 3 characters. So 4 accounts is 12 characters. This 8 accounts can handle a net gain of 16 PLEX. This is the low end of the scale, in my opinion. Assuming smart use of PI and good organization in wormhole space I expect I could do 1.5x or 2x that. 1.5x that is 36 plex or 28 bonus PLEX. Thus the 27 people or so I posted about in the OP.

Remeber, the guy I asked was doing it lazily, unoptimized, on 6 characters. Assuming 15 minutes a character, which is 90 minutes for his 6 characters which is what I put in the post, that is potentially 24x15 or 6x60 minutes. So 6 hours a day. Except, I don't have to repeat scans, repeat hauls, have more resources total waste is minimal, better tedious actions per second due to practice. Assuming 5 minutes an account twice per day that's 24x10 or 4 hours.

Now we look at economy of scale. I have slots to get factories for higher level products. I can do multiple production chains so I don't rely on a single or even two top level products.

I think that I can fit all my accounts onto a single planet without depletion. Testing may or may not confirm this. It maybe end up that I can generate less PLEX than I planned, but even so that's still a decent amount of bonus PLEX.

The title does say "possibly".
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Ivan Issaccs

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2013, 08:01:20 am »

Who is this rpg net wormhole corp. My best guess is its a handful of guys from a c4 or some nonsense, eitherway I imagine you are greatly over esitimating the profit capabilitys and your own capacity to not burn out.

Also if your in wormholes anyway, learn about the applications and logistics we decent corps use to make them easier, it'd be easier to train noobs to be self sufficient in a c4 than to buy them their own plexes with an effort that will turn any sane man off the game.
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JimboM12

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2013, 08:13:47 am »

I would be willing to play EVE with you, especially if it's free. Heard good things about it and been wanting to try it, but it didn't sound safe for a solo noob to be putting around in it. Putting in an hour or two of work for a guild corp is an ok trade to me, it's really no different then doing dailies and running dungeons/raids in other mmos; though perhaps it might be more tedious, but that's why I have a PS Vita handy.
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LordBucket

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2013, 09:22:10 am »

I don't have to

repeat hauls

oh?

Unless it's been changed recently, so far as I know characters can't access customs offices of other characters even if they're inthe same corportion. Has that changed? If not, even if two characters have identical setups on the same planet, you'll still need to warp to each planet on each character to pick up, import and export goods. That means logging in, undocking, warping to each of your planet to import/export as needed, warping back, switching characters then repeating the process.

Also, industrials do not have infinite storage capacity. My own experience with PI has been that even a single character is able to not quite but almost fill an industrial with goods every month. In addition to hauling materials between planets, at some point you need to actually sell the finished product, which means transporting them out of w-space and to a market. You're not going to be able to fit 36 character weeks worth of goods in an industrial. You probably could if you use a freighter, but weekly trips...that works out to ~3.6 billion worth of goods which would make you an incredibly attractive suicide gank target. You could stagger it so that you haul roughly an account worth of cargo every few days, maybe in a T2 industrial, but that still means 2-3 trips per week.

Finally, have you factored in wormhole logistics? Wormholes collapse on a daily basis, and more often than that if there's a lot of heavy traffic. Pretty much every time you take goods to market you're going to need to scan down an exit, and it will put you in a more or less random system that might be any number of hops away from a market hub. And that's assuming you're in a class of wormhole that consistently connects to k-space, rather than a class of wormhole that generates exists leading to other wormholes spaces. You might want to check into that, because if you're making regular trips in and out...yeah, I think you're going to want to make sure you're in the right type of wormhole.

Even so, since traffic through a wormhole encourages it to decay, it's sometimes going to happen that after leaving w-space, the wormhole will collapse behind you. This will require you to log on to another character inside the wormhole and scan down an exit again from the inside to your other character, which will again be to a random system, potentially requiring you to make any number of jumps to get to the known space system that has the wormhole that connects back to your wormhole system. and you will need to get that character back, because you'll need him in the wormhole to move goods around, since as mentioned...characters can't access customs office to get to goods being procured by other characters.

If you're going to do this, I highly recommend you be sure understand how wormholes work before you invest any large sums of ISK. On a bad day you might go through your allotted 4 hours/day simply trying to get home and not even succeed because the wormhole closed behind you, then after finishing at Jita and scanning down the new entrance...after travelling halfway cross the galaxy in your painfully slow industrial ship to get there, and after dealing with lowsec gatecamps on the way, by the time you arrive somebody else has collapsed the new entrance requiring you to scan the new one yet again which might again be on the opposite side of the galaxy.

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Assuming 5 minutes an account twice per day

If you're only talking about refreshing extractors, I find that five minutes once a day is enough for that. You might be able to get away doing it less often because resource generation rates are supposed to be much higher outside of highsec, though I can't confirm that personally. Once a day is enough to keep everything topped off in highsec. Maybe you can get away with 2 or 3 day cycle times. I don't know.

But, assuming once a day, that's still per character, not per account. It takes less than 5 minutes to click through and refresh everything, but logging in, switching characters, waiting for the game to load...it takes me about five minutes to do one character. Maybe you can averge faster than that. 5 minutes for three characters is nevertheless probably not realistic.

And that's only refreshing extractors, that doesn't include hauling time. If you're making high tier commodities you're going to need to be shuffling around goods between planets. Warp time alone is about a minute. If one character has to warp to 5 different planets, that's: log in, undock, warp to planet one, warp to planet 2, then 3, 4 then 5...then probably back to 1, then back to the PoS. That's ~7 minutes of warping, per character. That's not something you need to do every day, probably twice a week will be enough, but that's per character.

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Assuming 5 minutes an account twice per day that's 24x10 or 4 hours.

But you still need to sell the product. That means getting it to market. Have you ever lived in a wormhole?

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The title does say "possibly".

Well, again...go for it. Give it a try. Quick check of this thread, I could 8 yes responses and 3 maybe response.

But as someone who has done PI and spent some time in wormholes...rather than someone who has spoken to people who've done PI and been in wormholes...I think your time estimates might be off.

MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2013, 03:33:39 pm »

Who is this rpg net wormhole corp. My best guess is its a handful of guys from a c4 or some nonsense, eitherway I imagine you are greatly over esitimating the profit capabilitys and your own capacity to not burn out.

Also if your in wormholes anyway, learn about the applications and logistics we decent corps use to make them easier, it'd be easier to train noobs to be self sufficient in a c4 than to buy them their own plexes with an effort that will turn any sane man off the game.

I found your problem :)
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MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2013, 04:14:29 pm »

Who is this rpg net wormhole corp. My best guess is its a handful of guys from a c4 or some nonsense, eitherway I imagine you are greatly over esitimating the profit capabilitys and your own capacity to not burn out.

Also if your in wormholes anyway, learn about the applications and logistics we decent corps use to make them easier, it'd be easier to train noobs to be self sufficient in a c4 than to buy them their own plexes with an effort that will turn any sane man off the game.

Corp has 75 members. Also, and I know I'm about to blow some people's minds:

What if I like Planetary Interaction?
What if its not a means to an end but the end itself?

Of course it would be awesome if they put some more effort into mechanics to make it fun but still, I like economy stuff in my MMOs.
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revo

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2013, 04:48:16 pm »

I would definitely love to try! I love nefarious plots that fuel diabolical wars.
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Rabid_Cog

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2013, 03:46:04 am »

The fun in Eve is the interactions with other people. That is why even something as soul-crushingly, mind destroyingly boring such as mining asteroids can be fun as long as you do it in a group and talk shit together the whole time. The problem with PI as an end is that since you log on so rarely, you don't get that social interaction and hence, very little fun. I suggest you guys set up some sort of IRC channel to chat in while you aren't logged onto Eve.

If it has to do with PI, it shouldn't matter if the information leaks out so you don't have to be particularly concerned about secrecy or infiltrators, so there is that in your favour. Just be aware that high sec planets give pretty shit extraction and wormholes tend to be occupied/are easy to get lost in.
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MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2013, 04:00:39 am »

I am in a large wormhole corp although they keep telling me I should train some more skills up before I head for the hole. And buy a lot of skill books since it would be hard to get them inside. But since I'll be making regular weekly trips to hisec to sell goods and I'll have tons of characters it probably won't be an issue. Granted some weeks/months I may have less hi-sec access than others.

As far as PI goes, I'll have to be on 4 hours a day for PI but that doesn't mean I can't also do other things than PI if I want to.
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MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2013, 04:52:49 am »

I'm in the hole with 4 planets set for PI. I still have to boost command center and planetology to 4 so I can fit more on a CC and start training advanced planetology. Also get interplan to 4 to grab another planet.

1 character at my current production level is worth 10bil a year with 6 planets. That's 1.5Plex per year per character with low skills and not going past P1/P2. Assuming I can throw down the time and move the mats out of the hole I can definitely support a ton of free plex with only 4 accounts/12 characters.
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Ivan Issaccs

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2013, 10:49:40 am »

As a wormholer, the irony of moving into a hole for purely PI when you can make upwards of 200 mil an hour amuses me greatly.
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MoLAoS

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2013, 12:01:02 pm »

As a wormholer, the irony of moving into a hole for purely PI when you can make upwards of 200 mil an hour amuses me greatly.

If you do the math, PI is better than 200mil an hour. Plus I can ALSO do wormhole stuff.
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Android

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2014, 05:19:41 am »

curious to know how this is going.
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ansontan2000

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Re: EVE For Free(Possibly)
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2014, 05:28:32 am »

I'm not a big fan of monthly subscription fees, and that's always kept me away from EVE. Regardless, I have for years truly been curious what the whole deal with EVE was. If you'd be willing to take on a complete newbie, I'd be glad to join in.
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