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[sean_hyer]

I added the power tag to Dragons, so they could become the rulers of civilisations. They all died, so I looked at why and made them no_eat and no_drink.

I genned a new world, and again, they all died. What happens now is that they all become the rulers of goblin civilisations, and then (despite, you know, being freaking dragons) get murdered. Is there any good way to fix this other than to make goblins consider murder unacceptable?

Also, dragons never seem to become the rulers of dwarven civilisations. I reckon this is because they have an assigned monarch position. Is this true? If so, could I have both variable_positions:all and some nobles for fortress mode?

[TheOnlySolitaire]

In fortress mode you shouldn't be able get Dwarven positions be non-dwarves, because the dragon would not be the same creature species as the dwarves.

But in world-gen, it may be possible, but it would require (if I understand correctly), for you to remove all positions in the Dwarven entity. This is based on the understanding that humans and goblins do not have positions, only the VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL token, while Elves and Dwarves have specified postions but no variable_position tag.

Make sure you have SPHERE's on Dragons. I would guess that those spheres you choose, need to be the same as the religion spheres the entity believes in, ie DARKNESS or WAR for Goblins. This being on the assumption that the POWER tag allows a creature to trick a civ into believing it is a deity. Also make sure Dragons have CAN_TALK or they cannot trick anyone into believing they are a deity...

Otherwise, my suggestion is to remove BEAST_HUNTER from Goblins entity raws, or make dragons tougher...


PS: I'm pretty sure murder:acceptable is required for Goblins to get clowns and megabeasts to rule them...

[Grim Portent]

If you give a civ [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:LAW_BRINGER] I think that means that they can get demonic and other similar monstrous monarchs. You might need to remove kings from the civ but I'm not certain. To keep goblins from murdering their dragon overlords you need to change their ethics tag for murder to something like SHUN.

[Zammer990]

You can have non-dwarves be monarchs, but I don't know about non-entities.

[sean_hyer]

Huh.

Removing all non-site positions from the dwarves and adding [variable_positions:all] let dragons take over their societies. So that's all good. I haven't checked to see if fortress mode works fine yet, but it seems likely that it will. Looking at it with legends viewer, the dragons also did things like ventured into the caverns, and tamed... Voracious Cave Crawlers, Elk Birds, Rutherers, Jabberers, Blind Cave Bears, Cave Crocodiles, Giant Toads, Giant Olms, Giant Bats, Giant Rats, Giant Cave Swallows... and Cave Dragons.

So if I can embark with all that, that will be awesome. Who needs dogs when you have cave dragons?

Aww, that's a shame, you can't embark with the things they tamed. Maybe they'll be tame if you catch them - report on that to come later.


Changing the goblins to murder:shun did indeed stop dragons from taking over their civs, which I do not understand, as the human and dwarven civs don't approve of murder and they can get dragons. But hey.

Oh, I gave my dragons a couple of spheres, but they are unnecessary. With spheres, they trick civilisations into believing they are gods, but without them I am pretty sure they can still take over by force of argument (like demons and goblins).

[TheOnlySolitaire]

Interesting... You should run a dwarf fort until the Monarch arrives - would love to see the look on your Dwarves faces when they expect to see a king arrive, but instead see a dragon king turn up to take over!
I'm imagining a Smaug-esque dragon, using the Dwarves as a means to acquire even more wealth for the hoard.

The dragon was taming creatures in the caverns because of the [responsibility:military_strategy] token i believe. It would normally be under a monarch's Position entry.

I think the Goblin thing, is because Goblin ethics allow for other deviousness, such as lying and betrayal, but if murder is removed, a creature with the [POWER] token has no means of usurping power safely. God knows why it works for the Dwarves and Humans then...

I think it may work for the humans as they allow oathbreaking as a personal matter, and murder of a entity member as okay if justified. Don't know why it would be so for dwarves though...  Maybe there are deeper mechanics behind the [POWER] token...

[sean_hyer]

Further testing shows that you do indeed need to have no set monarch position; if your civ starts with a monarch, a dragon can't take over. Which is a shame, since it stops me making a monarch position which is in charge of leading battles and creating the most badass dragon king ever.

The reason I thought dragons (well, or demons) took over is that they arrived before a king was appointed, and either said "I'm really awesome so I should be king!" or "I'm one of your gods so I should be king!". So I thought murder had nothing to do with it. But, bam, as soon as I let goblins keep murdering each other, dragons take over them again. By "force of argument", not by murder. Huh.

Strike all that. Turns out that, even if you have a position for the monarch, including [VARIABLE_POSITIONS:ALL] will let a power take over the civ. I still have no clue what is up with the goblins, but hey! I can make an invincible king! Now, to mod dragons to be invincible. Let's see... I can make them out of metal... and of course give them wings...

[IndigoFenix]

The reason humans and dwarves can get monstrous rulers is because they believe in a pantheon... so a monster can convince them that it is a deity, and take over that way.
Goblins don't care about deities, but they see murder as acceptable, so a monster that murders the king can become the king.
Without one of these two requirements, monsters won't take over.  With both, you can practically guarantee that the civ will be ruled by a demon or a creature with the [POWER] tag, if there's one around.  I'm not sure if SPHERES have anything to do with it, but it probably makes it easier for a megabeast with the associated SPHERE to take over through the religion method.
(They also need the VARIABLE_POSITIONS tag for it to work.)

[Knight Otu]

Demons and powers can take over civs in certain circumstances.This old quote should still be valid - I have not found VARIABLE_POSITIONS to make a difference with established positions (removing non-site nobles and adding VARIABLE_POSITIONS puts dwarves into the position of humans):

A [power] can take over any position that isn't inherited ([SUCCESSION_BY:HEIR). They can take over positions that are passed on to other position holders or those that have no set succession (they seem to first take on the succeeding position before getting promoted to the actual position in my mod). A [power] can enter a civilization to take over a ruling position if it has fitting spheres to impersonate a god, or if the ethics support combat for rulership positions. Dwarves are immune thanks to having a monarchy, elves thanks to being godless, and kobolds thanks to having no hierarchy at all.