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[PersonGuy]

This thread is where i and hopefully other people give ideas not just for how magic should work but also provide information for the general rules for it and give some examples. I will start out with some suggestions for things that are confirmed to be part of Toady's plans that being artifacts my idea for lets say a sword would be for it to have a word written on its blade that when spoken by the person holding it will give the blade the ability to cut through anything besides a specific randomly chosen material such as silver and the effect lasts as long as the person has it in their hand and the effect can only be activated once a day. Another idea would be a hammer that also has a word on it that when spoken once a year allows any object forged with it to be an artifact.

 Another idea i have for a form of magic is a based mainly on how skills used to give superhuman abilities i will call it arete(this means excellence) it supposed to be a stat that goes up with the increase of a skill and their is a arete stat for certain sets of skills like there should be a arete stat making, operating, social, academic, and performing. Making is very obvious what it means that also goes for social, operating, and academics to but performing means any kind of stat that is supposed to interact with the environment or living creature such as swimming, sneaking, fighting(all forms of archery besides throwing go under operating). Arete should provide a small bonus to all skills within that area and a even smaller bonus to skills in general and certain skills might go under multiple categories arete and their is a stat for how potent of a affect arete should have the ones i can think right now are how far into a lifespan a being is and blessing given by the gods. I think should be a optional feature in world gen and is mainly if you like the idea of charles atlas superpower.

Anotherr idea for magic is hermetical magic it is more or less ritual magic that is dependent on ones available resources and order within the populace for effect. I think it should come from a temple dedicated to a god of magic who if pleased by the temple decoration and reverence shown within it(that means regular worshiping and no general havoc within its grounds) should send a book containing information on magic it should contain all the spells(this means there shouldn't be multiple books for this sort of magic). It is fairly obvious how the magic should work so i will give a advanced example of its capabilities i will call this the pillar of flame first one has to have a smith and craftsdwarf make a pillar one can decide how big it as this will affect how much power  it can hold next one has to place it within a magic circle and have a uninterrupted ceremony performed how long it is and how many dwarves are involved will  decide how powerful the effect is next when one wants to use it it must have a flame lit and another ceremony must be performed by another circle linked to it by object that was within it when the first ceremony was performed and the length of this ceremony is decided by how long the first one was and how many dwarves are involves when the ceremony is finished the pillar flame expands incinerating everything close by depending on the power of its ceremonies and immolating everything in a wide radius also depending on the power of the ceremony.

My last idea for magic is what i will call sorcery and it is acquired the same way as hermetical magic but its idea is shaping of primal chaos into powerful spells but is very dangerous as a result with it always having a chance to backfire but can be made mostly safe for the user with skill and preparation. It should come in multiple books and each book should provide more or less the use of a element, force, or special ability and its initiation should give the initiate a taste of how the magic contained works once the initiate reads the book he or she must decide how long and based on this and his skills and stats and current states(This is whether the person is something else already like a vampire, necromancer, or were creature or magic being such as a elf this should make it harder to acquire the magic and give a higher chance for a backlash) the initiate may gain the magic contained within and gain the sorcery skill but the process has a chance to not work requiring a second try or may have a backlash and make it impossible for the person to be able to learn magic for a long period of time or never again it also may possible kill the initiate. If the sorcerer is successful they gain the magic ability of the book their should be multiple books that give certain abilities like for example fire magic this magic can be used for things like setting things on fire and making fire in general. Sorcery should have a chance to backfire such as if you want to cause a person skin to burst into incinerating flame one will have a high difficulty requiring skill or preparation if this spell is to difficult it will have a overwhelming chance to fail and backfire and have various effects such as the spell simply does nothing sets someone else on fire or possibly yourself or you may lose the ability to work magic for a time it can be anything based on the spell such as losing control such as a fireball detonating as soon as it is let loose or a negative effect being reversed to the caster or may just straight up kill the sorcerer. Each spell should have a chance to succeed or in some way fail( A spell can work exactly as it is supposed to but a failure may just cause the loss of ability to cast for some time and a beginner level fire spell can for example be a massive fireball as hot as dragonfire but will have a massive chance of failure with succes being a one in a million thing) this is determined on how far away the target is or whether it directly affects the target negatively(such as bursting into flames) and the complexity of the affect and power in it such as if you made a fireball with the fire magic it would have to travel to the target then rapidly expand when it gets their and have enough power to at least set fire to the enemies and also factors such as whether you are being weighed down or hungry and exhausted or tired will effect your chance of success also each spell should increase the chance of failure based upon how risky the individual spell was and this will last until the sorceror has rest. A sorceror should be able to concentrate for a while to increase their chance of success but in a combat situation it would be difficult to do so and holding for a extended period of time would also be difficult. You will have to get other books to get other forms of magics(such as a book pf life for healing and possibly stat buffing or Resurrection and life extension and a book of force for telekinesis and levitation and a book of matter for transmutation and they can be used together for more complex effects such as using matter to conjure the mass needed to grow a person a new arm or a space magic and mind magic being used to scry a target or teleport a fireball) and you can have a certain amount of set effect spells that have a higher chance of success. Also this magic should overlap with hermetic magic somewhat mainly with hermetic magic making things like rings or assorted trinkets that increase a sorcerers chance of success using magic or possibly certain rituals will give a charge that increases a spells chance of success when used or reduce or set back the effect repeated use of spells have on your chance of success. Also arete should figure into the difficulty when casting a negative effect on someone. Sorcery in essence should be a system of magic in which it is the user shapes a primal force into a suitable form their is no real strength to it only skill and that no matter what the just like any other person in the worlds of dwarf fortress they should walk on the fine line between life and death. Like hermetic magic i think it should be if implemented a optional feature during world gen. 

These are just some ideas i have i can elaborate if you have any questions about them.

[PersonGuy]

I will summarize what i going for in these magic system ideas. With hermetic magic i was going for ritual magic with a bit of divine thrown in it is supposed to be based of ones available resources and not require its own skill and works as advertised when done right and simply doesn't work when done wrong this i thought of to deliberately contrast with sorcery which was meant to be something that when it fails it goes wrong and when it goes wrong your very very screwed. sorcery is supposed to be magic you want that can be technically used with great power and thrown around with abandon but in practice anyone who wants to live will go through as much preparation as possible and use the bare minimum amount of power to get whatever you want done. The two magic systems i made with different ideas in mind hermetic is something that is supposed to be fairly common(All of the information should come in one book) and is something one will want to use as much of as possible and is limited as i said before by ones resources, sorcery in contrast is supposed to be something one wants to use of as little as possible and be rare in that technically anyone could learn it but the books are rare and only provide a specific purview of sorcery(Their should be multiple books for different magics such as fire, matter, energy, animation, and life etc) and that their is a high mortality rate for those who choose it and their should be a stigma to it as people will fear and hate you for practicing it. But it is something that is possible to become very powerful in but will require caution and preparation and the most useful spells won't be fireballs or telekinesis it will be spells making ones flesh and bone as hard to rend as adamantium and sorcereries that make one as strong as a minotuar and as faster then anything else the most powerful spells imagined in this system should be ones that provide a constant tangible effects as every time you throw a fireball you run the risk of sorcery and that is trying to control a primal force hostile to reality and its set laws.

EDIT

I know that somewhat contradicts the sources of magic given in threetoes storys but i see a the potential to possibly equate it with armok.

EDIT

Just another idea but the books that give sorcery have a random amount of charges before they become inert or have a higher chance of not working or giving a negative effect.

[Linkxsc]

advice for future posts, more separate paragraphs (not to be rude or anything, walls of text are just grueling to read)

Now I'm just having some trouble here.

I don't understand why there should be such different magic for the "ritual" casting and "sorcery"

So sorcery is hard and possibly damaging to the player. Why shouldn't a ritual be able to do the same stuff then, however spreading the power demand over several casters rather than just 1? What's the actual cost to the player for doing sorcery? Shorter lifespan? Exhaustion/Hunger/Thirst?

What about more utilitarian effects like enchanting equipment with minor buffs. Waterskins that don't freeze. Arrows that don't break as easily.

Why no curses? You've got basically casted buffs. How long do the buffs last? Are they permanent? (seems a little broken to me). Why no curses? Planning to go after a large group of people. Maybe attacking one of them new armies that will be scouring the land? Why not cast a curse on them. Or maybe cursing the land they're going to be walking through. Make it so that they all become nauseous or something to limit their fighting ability? Ofcourse, it would require preparations and would only last a short time. But could be the tipping point to making a battle won or lost.

Why is sorcery so damaging? A person can't do little fireballs, or a light generating spell without practically killing themselves. Does it cost any materials to cast stuff? What about heals. I didn't see anything about heals? Also how would a fortress possibly get a hold of a sorcery or ritual book?

[GreatWyrmGold]

advice for future posts, more separate paragraphs (not to be rude or anything, walls of text are just grueling to read)

Quoted for truth. I don't even know if I can read that wall of text...especially given the number of things I should be doing...well, I can skim, at least.

Your examples for activated abilities for artifacts are...interesting, but a bit gamier than I think Toady intends to go with it. Also, the second one seems...overpowered.

Arete is a neat idea, I suppose.

Your "ritual magic" is a bit...well, vague and generic. I have some opinions, but they're mostly too vague to share because your idea is vague. In the summaries, you said this kind would be "common". However, Dwarf Fortress is supposed to be a Low Fantasy world--ie, there is magic, but it isn't common or world-shaping.

One nice thing about your "sorcery" is that it fits in okay with previous magic (necromancy). From my skim, it seems like there isn't a lot earth-shattering there. No offense, but it's not that novel.

Overall, there isn't a lot here that hasn't been said before, in many previous threads about magic. On that note...

Search for an existing thread. If you find a thread similar to your idea, you can bump it to expand on the suggestion, even if the thread is old.  However, please do not bump threads just to show support.

Please search.

[PersonGuy]

What i was trying to do was explain how magic systems work that supposed to include explanations for skills material effects and functions basically the in and outs of the system. I was vague in my explanation of hermetic magic i thought it was fairly obvious how it would function and leave it up to the minds of others how various rituals would work and just explain some mechanics and give a very big example of its use to show the limits of how its done.


About it being common i meant that in a relative way this is mainly something i am expecting due to how societies of hermetic magic users would form and that is something i should have explained earlier and so i will explain that now. My idea is that cabals of scholars, occultists, and nobles will get together behind closed doors to practice various rites to further themselves in endeavors my other idea are cults of people from every walk of life who gather in remote rarely traveled places or just practice in places relatively in the open but said area will be inhabited by people who are in some way involved or are to terrified to do something about it. Hermetic magic should in cases when one uses it to do something that can be done through mundane means such as set something on fire or move a object or some cases kill(This should be dependent on various factors such as the usual and various things that are connected such as hair and possibly distance relative to the ceremony) should take more effort then doing it with mundane means.


Hermetic magic was also supposed to also be common relative to sorcery which i was mainly expecting for most of the society to consist of experienced sorcerers taking in apprentices every few decades and these apprentice should be people whom the sorcerer believe will be able to handle sorcery better then most. Sorcerers who are powerful should occasionally become overlords through the use of magic.


Sorcerors should go through years of training before becoming really powerful and possibly to balance this things like becoming immortal with magic should become more difficult relative to how much of your lifespan you have gone through this could be countered by learning the specific magic needed as fast as possible and going getting things to assist them in the endeavor. Sorcery should be something that should have things that increase your chances such as possibly staffs that you use to focus various worn objects such as rings or robes or hats and there should be rituals that allow one to form a charge that they can use to more or less empower a spell raising there chances also their could possibly be a on site actions like focusing for some rounds. There should also be things that should increase your chances of failure such as pain, hunger, encumbrance, or exhaustion that maker it harder to perform sorcery.


Also the chance of a really negative effect happening should be decrease relative how good your chances where having a spell failure something where you have a one in hundred chance of failure should have a higher chance of having a minor effect such as the spell veers off target or it simply doesn't work or magic becomes harder for a period of time or you can't use magic for a period of time and if you fail on something where your chance of success is for example one in a hundred chance of success then your chances of something really bad such as be killed instantly or through the result of spell malfunctions and things that debilitate you such as losing a limb losing strength going blind an also losing your ability to use magic be it permanently or possibly restored through undergoing the the process of becoming a sorcerer etc.


Also it mainly something i think would be relatively easy to incorporate is a option that decides the general difficulty of using magic such as a competent sorcerer being able to through a fireball at the spur of the moment with nothing to aid the spell and having no serious negative modifiers such as pain or starvation that lower the chance of success only minor fairly minor like things being a bit thirsty or hungry would have a one in a two hundred chance of a negative effect or alternatively making it so a legendary sorcerer with equipment and spell charges focusing for a few rounds would have the same chances as the above example.Curses should be a effect of certain rituals or branches of magic available to sorcerers and hermetic magic users.


Also i have some other ideas for artifacts such as a ring that grants flesh and bone the strength of steel or adamantine as long as he is standing on worked stone or natural stone or the dirt or as long the sun or the moon is in the sky my main idea for artifact powers should be the more powerful the effect the more difficult the conditions should be or is heavily conditional such as being very useful in certain conditions examples of this would include a helm that is a strong as adamantine yet is made of copper or steel armor that when worn under the light of the moon grants the wearer incredible strength and agility or a steel sword that whenever it pierces the flesh of the enemy three times it kills them instantly but only when they are in total darkness or the sword cause the user to age exponentially whenever it is on ones person and killing something with it should take a months to years of one life depending on the strength of whatever it killed or a door that can never fall as long as their is no enemy free inside the walls of a certain area or it will only fall when it is faced by a bear etc.

[shadowclasper]

Toady has said repeatedly that magic in the game is going to remain mysterious and nonindustrial. There's unlikely to EVER be a system where the players can just set a magic task and get it done.

The only way I could see it working is if by random chance an immigrant with trained magical powers or a dwarven child is born with them. These powers are randomly assigned from a list of things they can do. They can be set to tasks BASED upon these powers.

A magical child is basically a loose canon unless he can be trained or he survives until his grows up. If there is a trained 'wizard' in your fortress (received by migration) then he'll get training. Otherwise he'll have to practice on his own and will use his powers at random as a child (so a pyromancer with fire balls is going to make a fortress VERY interesting).

Powers can be:
-Pyromancy: Tossing fireballs
-Kinetomancy: Moving shit around by telekinesis or something
-Transportation: Automated hauling. He touches a thing, and it goes exactly where it needs to go.
-Biomancy: healing by a touch.
-Enchanting: Creates artifact quality items with random magical properties that you don't know about until the item is used.

You cannot ever assign tasks related to these powers. But they'll use them as appropriate. So a dwarven 'wizard' should be given doctor tasks as well since his touch will heal dwarves. A pyromancer wizard should be put into a squad of marksdwarves, a Transportation wizard should have labors except hauling turned off. Etc.etc.

They have skill levels in these powers that grow, but as stated, you can't directly train them. The best you can do is put them in a situation where they'll learn them.

You can build a special room for wizards where they'll study though and teach each other, passively improving their skills. It's also the only way to prevent child dwarves from randomly using their powers and causing chaos.

This is the only way I could see magic working in this game.

[PersonGuy]

That sounds like a good idea but my idea in my systems was for the sorcerer to more or less be like you described( With some major differences primarily they can be taught and must learn magic and it isn't a random personal gift) with also some being much like a necromancer except said sorcerer would mostly show up in person with maybe some slaves, mercenaries, and magic constructs/summons for backup and may only seek conquest of your fort as opposed to total extermination of life also the precise use of sorcery by the player is intended to only really occur in adventure mode.


In contrast hermetic magic was something thought up with the expressed intent of being something societies possibly player controlled would use to achieve desired affects but only if they can pay the costs and are willing to take the stigma that should be associated with it and sorcery(Being declared a sorcerous nation resulting Religious crusades and refusal of trade breaking of alliances and assorted agreements by certain civs and possibly abandonment by ones own civilization and the halting of most migrants with maybe rebellion by citizens of certain religious background if such activities where to become known to the world at large also possibly increased attacks by evil nations as you have no allies meaning no assistance by other civs and no starting wars with multiple civs). 


Also i have some ideas for necromancers and deity granted abilities. My idea for necromancers are the ability to mark a person for a certain amount of time and if they die you get their soul and you can use this for special abilities like touch of death, cursing either with ill fortune or possibly death under certain conditions, making a husk, causing all the dead in a certain area to rise, and corrupting a biome.


Deity derived abilities should primarily be resistance to curses and evil influences with people who have a blessing being immune to curses or having their soul stolen or their body being raised as a undead or corruption of their lands and the high priests (not common clerics) should possibly be near impossible to be cursed or harmed by non physical effects of magic with no resistance to things like like thrown stones, fireballs, or having lava teleported in they should have no immunity but to things like mind control, touch of death, being directly effected by telekinesis, being turned to stone, or being teleported to a volcano they should be immune in every way and form with some abilities of their such as healing, resistance to harm and increased physical capabilities, the ability to inspire bravery in groups of people, and the ability to find the location of evil creatures and get visions of the plans of evil creatures.


What i am going for is that magic exists but it is mainly something that exists in remote places or hidden from the world and major incursions are countered by religious groups whose primary abilities is Resistance to many of the powers of magicians, Sorcerers, and necromancers of whom they will hunt relentlessly. Said groups should mainly consist of common people who join the cause in the event of a crusade or warriors and inquisitors belonging to religious orders who main purpose is to find various evil creatures who dwell in the country side and find evil creatures who hide in society and occasionally have crusades against Necromancers, Sorcerous civs, and large groups of monsters etc.

[shadowclasper]

That still leaves the problem of industrialized magic in the form of hermeticism. You just don't want to give the players the ability to control magic in any meaningful form.

Take advantage of it when it is present? Certainly.

Make it, control it, provide it for their fortress? Certainly not. Which is what Hermeticism will do.

And it doesn't matter if you put in some kind of counter balance like crusades, players will exploit it and treat it like a tool, which is the opposite of how magic is supposed to work.

[PersonGuy]

That still leaves the problem of industrialized magic in the form of hermeticism. You just don't want to give the players the ability to control magic in any meaningful form.

Take advantage of it when it is present? Certainly.

Make it, control it, provide it for their fortress? Certainly not. Which is what Hermeticism will do.

And it doesn't matter if you put in some kind of counter balance like crusades, players will exploit it and treat it like a tool, which is the opposite of how magic is supposed to work.

Well that's the point its something i thought up that is supposed to be available to player fortresses that they can control and the main balancing detriments would be obtaining the books/materials and the time, preparation, and order needed to perform it along with the threat of loss of all trading partners and constant war with many nations and possibly continents.

It is something i specifically thought up with the intention of it being (Mostly) safely controlled by the players if the are skilled/lucky enough to acquire the books and the materials/dwarfpower neccesary for use. 

[shadowclasper]

And I think it's rather cool. I just don't think it's ever going to be adopted what with Toady outright stating that magic is never going to be 'industrialized' in any way, shape, or form.

[PersonGuy]

And I think it's rather cool. I just don't think it's ever going to be adopted what with Toady outright stating that magic is never going to be 'industrialized' in any way, shape, or form.

Well then i think it a okay idea my main inspiration for hermetic magic was darklands which is set in 1400s Europe which i think has some rightness to it and i had something else for inspiration that i can't quite remember right now.

[Adrian]

I know it's arrogant to quote myself, but

I'd prefer to see
-"Magic" as something only deities can preform and the mortals can only ask the deities for favors.
 -Deities only being able to influence things in their respective spheres.
-A deity's power being proportional to the amount of worship it receives from around the world.
 -This wouldn't have to end with deities. A vampire with a large enough cult following could gain special abilities as well.

or runic magic in any way, shape or form. Simply because it's dwarfy.

But the two are hardly mutually exclusive

On the subject of mana, if deities are not the source of "magic":

Consider mages being able to produce a quantified amount of magic through the spell casting labor. This would be used to fuel their spells.
One-off effects (like teleporting a gobin's spine two squares away) would require charging, and lasting effects (like a trout-rain) might require constant fueling.

I can definitely see a floor full of necromancers chanting away to keep their hordes animated.

Mana is a pool belonging to the caster, which is used up as spells are cast. I was describing an opposite: A pool which belongs to a spell and which needs to be full for it to function properly.
Also, there don't have to be numbers in-game. It could be a background calculation.

I was suggesting it more so we wouldn't be able to spam asteroids on sieges.
"You want boulder-rain? Sure, but unless you want the ceiling in the dining hall to collapse you'd better have enough talented mages."

And regarding the mechanisms of magic:

Consider magic as only being able to manipulate the properties of objects/materials, as opposed to the object itself. (by substituting, adding or removing tokens)
The tokens could be represented by glyphs/runes/whatever so to change the size of a creature you'd need to find/learn the glyph representing the BODY_SIZE token.

This would also make the amount of different spells nigh-infinite.

[PersonGuy]

Okay then but about the deity thing sorcerers slabs and hermetic books are supposed to be given by a deity possibly to the player if fortress temples are ever implemented and mana doesn't really apply to these magic systems as they can functionally have a mana equivalent such as sorcereries various bonuses and minuses to casting and the materials present and time spent performing a ritual for hermetic magic.


Runic magic and hermetic could possibly overlap and the casting mechanism is something i haven't really thoroughly though out in how exactly it would function i do imagine something like what you described its mainly supposed to be a construct your own spell thing.

[PersonGuy]

I also have some ideas for inquisitor Abilities that i thought up they are abilities derived from a deity and there isn't a stat they are given by the deity whenever said deity has deemed the inquisitor worthy through pious behavior and great deeds here are some i just thought up.

Level one should be the same as the crusader abilities level two should be the ability to bless against evil such as a blessed sword the sword normally if it was used against a night creature such as a vampire would only tear through the muscle and fat on the arm would sever it completely when blessed and a blessed door would be impossible to open by a night creature and impossible for said night creature to destroy.

 Level three abilities should be the increase of physical whether the are doubled or tripled they are increased substantially and the character age limit should be maxed out so a human who obtains this level would only die of old age at 120 years or a dwarf 170. The next level should be immunity to all magic abilities that directly affect the target body and or clothing and the inquisitor would have their lives expanded to 180 years.

The next level after this should be special abilities like healing, flight, fire powers, weather control, scrying, the ability to live for centuries, teleportation, Ability to inspire powerful emotions, and many other things a person of this level is basically a high priest and they should probably only receive on of these abilities and should have a a limit to them like minute long cool down only doable x number of times per say and any further leveling should be either a increase in the how many times the can do it or potency or the addition of other powers also certain deities should be only give certain abilities.

[Mesa]

I'm just going to throw my own idea into here and say that we should handle magic Gothic-style (only very roughly based on what I remember of it, actually):

IE. follower(s) of deity/god XYZ get blessed with knowledge of a certain magic that they can (through undefined means) either inscribe into runes (which can be then set into other items for extra badassery) or slabs (like they do now) or keep it entirely through the spoken word if they think their powers are too strong to be written down.

And let's face it - not everyone should be able to use magic, but putting arbitrary limits (like "you need superhuman patience") on that would be lame. It'd make sense for demigods to be able to learn them and also for people whose ancestors used to use magic. Could make for the cool concept of wizard bloodlines.
And then you could have all sorts of histories of tracking down all the mages of deity XYZ or assassinating the only mage who has the knowledge of powers granted by deity ABC...

That sort of stuff.