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[Blazinganvil1]

I'm just going to throw my own idea into here and say that we should handle magic Gothic-style (only very roughly based on what I remember of it, actually):

IE. follower(s) of deity/god XYZ get blessed with knowledge of a certain magic that they can (through undefined means) either inscribe into runes (which can be then set into other items for extra badassery) or slabs (like they do now) or keep it entirely through the spoken word if they think their powers are too strong to be written down.

And let's face it - not everyone should be able to use magic, but putting arbitrary limits (like "you need superhuman patience") on that would be lame. It'd make sense for demigods to be able to learn them and also for people whose ancestors used to use magic. Could make for the cool concept of wizard bloodlines.
And then you could have all sorts of histories of tracking down all the mages of deity XYZ or assassinating the only mage who has the knowledge of powers granted by deity ABC...

That sort of stuff.

While actually incorporating magic into the game would need to be done by Toady, a lot of the same things could be done by modding in some custom interactions. One might use the [I_SOURCE:SECRET] token, along with the tokens [IS_SECRET:SUPERNATURAL_LEARNING_POSSIBLE], [IS_SECRET:MUNDANE_TEACHING_POSSIBLE], and optionally the arguments MUNDANE_RECORDING_POSSIBLE and MUNDANE_RESEARCH_POSSIBLE, (these last must be used together) so that it can be learned/taught by a deity, or learned from a book/slab. Then use [I_TARGET:CREATURE] and its subsequent arguments, and [I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]. You would specify whatever ability you were granting within the syndrome, using the special interaction syndrome tokens (begun with [CE_CAN_DO_INTERACTION]) to tell the game what the creature can now do/will have happen to it because of the interaction. Then, in theory, your interaction should be able to be granted to an individual or two during worldgen (sorry I can't be more helpful it's been a while since I tried this.) As for the bloodlines, afraid I've got no ideas.

[Mesa]

Of course, the way I described it, my system would be exploitable (in the meta sense) which would lead to wizard breeding programs and whatnot, but damn if there is something Bay12 hasn't exploited yet.

[PersonGuy]

Those sound like good ideas but i am uncertain about the idea of bloodlines which i think will only lead to nobles you can't get rid of and will only probably do anything until something has gone seriously wrong which would probably would be !!FUN!! but they would be interesting as adventurers. Also the runes idea is something that i thought of as being a specific subset of hermetic magic well that and alchemy and rituals would be the binding central element.

[PersonGuy]

Some more ideas for hermetic magic is that it is many different kinds of magic rituals, runes, alchemy, etc it is that they are the use of magic through rituals preformed by using materials in a certain way as to evoke magic and shouldn't leave a permanent physical marker unless it is specifically the spells intent.

It should come from many different sources such as a god revealing the writing of runes of power to a chosen follower. A demon tyrant showing howto invoke the underworld through blood sacrifice to a favored servant a nature spirit showing how to use various natural objects to bring good health for oneself and to the land to a person deemed worthy. An alchemist after many painstaking years of experimentation making a philosophers stone. A entity giving a book detailing rituals to a cabal of mystery hunters.

These different rites may be dependent on the location such as a nature spell be more powerful in a forest or a blood sacrifice being more potent in a evil biome and possibly runes being more powerful depending on how far one is away from a holy ground.

[PersonGuy]

Something else about magic mainly practitioners i thought of some things a few new ideas mainly just listing. I think magicians should be a name that we will use to refer to practitioners of hermetic magic from now on. I heard pact making as a way to get power earlier from another thread and i think sorcerer would be a better name for such a practitioner of magic then the idea i thought up of. Lastly wizards i think wizards should be a form of physical presence taken by a god and used to perform tasks and possibly be playable/controllable and such and possibly be a source of demigods and magical bloodlines like DarkDXY came up with his idea for magic citizens.   

[Passover]

I was thinking recently, what if magic will be based on basic elements relationship?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I mean you can combine elements to create thousands of various magic spells, you also can use your freshly created spell on yourself, your enemy, few tiles around you and others many various ways to release your magic.

[shadowclasper]

again, too mechanistic for what Toady1 is going for with magic. Well, not entirely true. Why not think instead in terms of spheres instead of elements?

[Reelya]

advice for future posts, more separate paragraphs (not to be rude or anything, walls of text are just grueling to read)

Agreed, I really don't know where to start with that either.

PweaonGuy, my suggestion is that you bullet point the main things as briefly as possible, and follow each point with a paragraph explaining anything that's not already apparent. It seems really hard to follow your paragraphs, almost like they're "flow of conscious" novels, with WAY too long sentences, and coming out of nowhere like you assume we're already familiar with your train of thought. I couldn't barely parse what your point was in the first paragraph.

Also your second paragraph is near unreadable with how there are grammatical errors and it's all one sentence that flows together, but it's apparently making a number of points. Make one point per sentence. you wrote:

Another idea i have for a form of magic is a based mainly on how skills used to give superhuman abilities i will call it arete(this means excellence) it supposed to be a stat that goes up with the increase of a skill and their is a arete stat for certain sets of skills like there should be a arete stat making, operating, social, academic, and performing.

^ What is then, even? You seem to be missing a lot of words like "are", "of" etc, as well as writing "a" where you mean "an". I could only tell that by very vague guesswork as to you meaning.

Making is very obvious

Actually, it's not very obvious because your writing is extremely opaque.

what it means that also goes for social, operating, and academics to but performing means any kind of stat that is supposed to interact with the environment or living creature such as swimming, sneaking, fighting(all forms of archery besides throwing go under operating). Arete should provide a small bonus to all skills within that area and a even smaller bonus to skills in general and certain skills might go under multiple categories arete and their is a stat for how potent of a affect arete should have the ones i can think right now are how far into a lifespan a being is and blessing given by the gods. I think should be a optional feature in world gen and is mainly if you like the idea of charles atlas superpower.

Well, having skimmed that, that's not really anything to do with magic. It's just saying that if you do a lot of crafting, you get better at crafting, which the current skills system already accounts for. The only thing arete does differently is "bleed over" from one skill to a related skill. And a revamp to the skills system could handle that better without having to invoke "magic". I don't think performing random skills a lot of times should give you magical longevity or super-strength, either.

[PersonGuy]

Me just cataloging and summarizing some of the various ideas i have heard or thought up that i think are good.

.Sorcery i have explained it many times before and it is a pet idea of mine that i think could work. But no i think that after some thought it should be referred to not as sorcery(i have heard some other ideas that the name fits a great deal better then this idea) but as a specific form of magic like "Divine Knowledge" magic why i say this is that it is learned through a tablet like necromancy and like necromancy it gives knowledge except this knowledge pertains to the secrets of existence itself. I the various mechanics it might possess have gone over quite thoroughly but the main themes are that it has various spheres of existence that either are supposed to do certain things like a school of magic much like DnD or manipulate an aspect of existence like Arcanums from the World of darkness mage games and the player makes custom spells from the various abilities presented(Said Arcanum/Schools could possibly be randomized although this fits better with the dnd interpretation) and all abilities and levels of power should likely be available the second you learn the magic but are limited by skill level based chances of failure that can be mitigated by various things(Other forms of magic, Favored spells) and is effected by allot of different factors and rest should be important with a repeated usage of spells between rests increasing the overall chance of failure with each spell. Ultimately this is on reflection comes of quite allot like the aforementioned World of darkness mages games and ars magica but many of theses ideas presented here could be used in other ideas mentioned here.

.Hermetic magic is the one that i have the least to really say about as it is mainly just magic that doesn't require a altered state of being and relies heavily on materials and rituals. Some of the ideas that would fit into it would be things like making runes and signs or making charms and performing rituals and performing alchemy really this one is the most undefined and therefore has the most room in it for procedural generation. Hermetic magic would likely have subtle like luck or better healing and protection from evil creatures, influences, or even curses or non flashy effect that have a fair deal of power but are mainly things like curses of bad luck or the manipulation of weather or receiving a vision that gives vital information and contact or possibly coax/control various spirits(this would likely tie in with sorcery) and various alchamelical products and potions. It is something performed commonly but rarely has an effect of raising ones chances a little but could provide things that can effect a dire situation   


. Sorcery/Theurgy/Blessings/Pacts it is magic that like the above can be pretty much anything but it comes from some form of transaction with another being this will likely be more flashy then hermetic magic but said flashiness relies heavily on the deal and this deal may be highly conditional requiring regualr service and or a specific code of conduct or may be something that marks the person permanently and or requires something from the seeker of power. it may be a blessing from a god that as long as you uphold a code and do works for said god you receive good fortune, miracles, health, protection from evil such as curses and corruptions, and possibly powers or it may be a deal with a spirit summoned through hermetic magic in which a deal is made with said being where anything from direct at will powers to being able to have certain high powered rituals work or signs, runes, or potions to have power needed to work are given and the payment can be anything from something like the seekers soul, limb, family, wealth, or any assorted things of that sort.


. Inherent gifts are another idea i have seen many times and mainly it can be summarized as a bloodline(like channelers from WoT or sorcerors from DnD and or one person gift( like magic from dragon age) where the person is born with powers like a line of fairy blooded persons that have control over the elements or a person born mysteriously with powers of other minds like the ability to produce illusions and read thoughts and confuse minds and tell what one might do in the future but said abilities only are used by that person and any children said person has share none of their parents power. This also has a huge amount of room for anything mainly as it is poorly defined and mainly is something that could possibly feature extensively in fortress mode with a lines of nobles that have magic powers or rare persons suddenly manifesting strange powers etc.

. I have some ideas for artifacts but i think they are mainly just redundant but my idea and ideas i have heard for a possible improvement to necromancy are something that could make it more FUN and enforce a way of operation for successful necromancers. First my idea is necromancers should have an ability to mark someone so when they die the absorb spirit energy that allows the necromancer to perform various dread acts such making husks or cursing lands, people, or objects with death or decay and doing death or related things second is that necromancers should have randomly generated extra abilities that possibly need to be leveled up.

Do any of these ideas sound good?

[PersonGuy]

Extending on that ars magica comparison/reflection maybe things could work out in practice (assuming mainly the inherent gift or limited tablet charges recomandtions/ideas) like its troupe style party organization.

[Darbles]

Soooooo....I genuinely missed a lot of what has been said, but, a vague thought came to mind and I figured this would be the place for it.

at least 4 types of magic (rate of occurrence in world gen):

Cultural/Communal (Common): which is pretty simplistic styles of magic, utilising a lot of herbology(virtually all low level potions would be in this vein if those are implemented), mysticism(spells, but would be tied to bloodlines, so you would only have indirect sources to that aspect unless you chose that as one of your starting packages or potentially did some sort of blood ritual), would probably be very similar to Hermetic magic, and probably almost exactly the same. tends to be kept within families and communities, some is "common" and seen to be similar across continents as it will often be attributed to bloodlines and therefore picked up primarily by accident. Will be simple, not very powerful, probably only slightly stronger than most items and skills you can use already, often because it will be cheaper resource-wise, not necessarily in potency.

Religious (Uncommon): this would basically be priestly powers, holy/demonic knight, i'm thinking good or evil (or possibly even neutral). I dont want this to be too gamey, so I don't think it would be a "this is only good against the opposing alignments gods, but I'm sure some gods can really not like each other and so some of it can play out like that. I'm thinking it would run on a sort of piety system, gods tend to like x things, but not y things, only because I'm not quite sure how else it would look. I think this shouldn't be a sudden "you worship this god, now prove yourself" sort of thing, but a "something happens because a god has taken interest in you" and then possibly over time you find out who that is, and whether they are worth fighting for/worshiping in a way that gets them more interested and probably giving you more power.

Sorcery (Rare): The easiest  example is our current Necromancer system, needs books/literacy, strictly found or apprenticeships. Arguably the only thing that requires reading and extremely high intellect to do, but requires little else. as such since you will be spending so much on relatively useless skills, I'm thinking if implemented soon, it would be have the highest cost/benefit ratio of the magics, but perhaps it will require excessive use to not forget or something like that, so it will be hard to become a superhero who can swim 1000000 leagues without drowning and can move mountains and can't be touched, and slaughter millions with a swing of your sword, and also have amazing spells.

Artefacts/Gems(Varying Rarity): These I figure could be collected by communities, perhaps even having a town have a magic sword used in the defense of the town on display in the hands of a statue of the towns hero which if you defend the town from a mighty for they could gift you, or you could theoretically steal it. Possibly given by your god who leads you to a special locale where it is hidden, or enchanted by yourself using sorcery or by your teacher/mentor. obviously some have not been found and wont be delivered by your god, so they can be found by accident, protected by giant beasts (standard game loot system), etc.


that's my 2 cents, probably already discussed at length before, but I didn't feel like reading the towers of text, perhaps now I'll go back and read through a bit more.

[PersonGuy]

Soooooo....I genuinely missed a lot of what has been said, but, a vague thought came to mind and I figured this would be the place for it.

at least 4 types of magic (rate of occurrence in world gen):

Cultural/Communal (Common): which is pretty simplistic styles of magic, utilising a lot of herbology(virtually all low level potions would be in this vein if those are implemented), mysticism(spells, but would be tied to bloodlines, so you would only have indirect sources to that aspect unless you chose that as one of your starting packages or potentially did some sort of blood ritual), would probably be very similar to Hermetic magic, and probably almost exactly the same. tends to be kept within families and communities, some is "common" and seen to be similar across continents as it will often be attributed to bloodlines and therefore picked up primarily by accident. Will be simple, not very powerful, probably only slightly stronger than most items and skills you can use already, often because it will be cheaper resource-wise, not necessarily in potency.

Religious (Uncommon): this would basically be priestly powers, holy/demonic knight, i'm thinking good or evil (or possibly even neutral). I dont want this to be too gamey, so I don't think it would be a "this is only good against the opposing alignments gods, but I'm sure some gods can really not like each other and so some of it can play out like that. I'm thinking it would run on a sort of piety system, gods tend to like x things, but not y things, only because I'm not quite sure how else it would look. I think this shouldn't be a sudden "you worship this god, now prove yourself" sort of thing, but a "something happens because a god has taken interest in you" and then possibly over time you find out who that is, and whether they are worth fighting for/worshiping in a way that gets them more interested and probably giving you more power.

Sorcery (Rare): The easiest  example is our current Necromancer system, needs books/literacy, strictly found or apprenticeships. Arguably the only thing that requires reading and extremely high intellect to do, but requires little else. as such since you will be spending so much on relatively useless skills, I'm thinking if implemented soon, it would be have the highest cost/benefit ratio of the magics, but perhaps it will require excessive use to not forget or something like that, so it will be hard to become a superhero who can swim 1000000 leagues without drowning and can move mountains and can't be touched, and slaughter millions with a swing of your sword, and also have amazing spells.

Artefacts/Gems(Varying Rarity): These I figure could be collected by communities, perhaps even having a town have a magic sword used in the defense of the town on display in the hands of a statue of the towns hero which if you defend the town from a mighty for they could gift you, or you could theoretically steal it. Possibly given by your god who leads you to a special locale where it is hidden, or enchanted by yourself using sorcery or by your teacher/mentor. obviously some have not been found and wont be delivered by your god, so they can be found by accident, protected by giant beasts (standard game loot system), etc.


that's my 2 cents, probably already discussed at length before, but I didn't feel like reading the towers of text, perhaps now I'll go back and read through a bit more.

Cultural/Communal That is mostly on target but there are ideas mostly that it might tie in with sorcery(Related to religious below) where you make a pact that permanently marks you and allows the use of high rituals or increase the potency of spells.

Religious Mostly on target whenever it was mentioned it was mostly supposed to also be related to pact making which is either supposed to be something of itself but be somewhat related to divine powers and tie into the above mentioned magic and possibly bloodlines.

Sorcery (after some thought should probably just be called high sorcery or something like thaumaturgy or divine knowledge) On target but as the others it supposed to tie in and have some variation in powers presented and how rare it is with the books maybe only conferring the powers a limited amount of time/at a certain time or place/ or to a certain type of person and a chance of spell failure has been mentioned every time to be a central mechanic with many factors weighing in increasing the value of things that help you perform it reducing chance of spell failure and time spent increasing the skills needed be it from constant practice or instruction from a tutor etc. Also that there will likely be serious consequences by society or supernatural forces.

Artifacts There is nothing that was really suggested besides some ideas for abilities so what you said is probably a better suggestion then whatever i said.

Some things you didn't cover that where mentioned like bloodlines and pact making/ritual sorcery where through some supernatural interference a magic power has been tied onto a person or a family that mostly in the pact making has a cost and limitations while bloodlines may carry curses and assorted FUN. Also i made some suggestions for an upgrade in necromancer power chiefly being the ability to mark some when so when they die you absorb spirit energy that can be used to fuel more powerful abilities. 

[Neonivek]

Dwarf Fortress isn't low fantasy it is outright High Fantasy. That said it is one that strongly separates those with power and those without, as well as not making mortals completely defenseless.

I'd also add in pact magic.

[Eidre]

My 2 pence...mostly concerning hedge magic and inborn powers...

What would a "good" magic system look like in the interface?  If that's described, it should be easier to work backwards towards a supporting implementation.  Here's a sample of the sorts of messages I would expect to see out of a 'mystery magic' system in the game.

"Urist McWizard is glowing with power" (magus is in an environment or near an event that grants them mana; nearby dwarves get a minor unhappy thought for seeing something unnatural; Urist is about to release some magical energy, either controlled or uncontrolled).

"The air around Urist McPyromancer ignites!" (clouds of magma mist radiate out from the dwarf; uncontrolled effect from a powered-up pyromancer that doesn't have sufficient Sorceror skill to control or restrain their powers; in addition to the unnatural unhappy thought, nearby dwarves that are set on fire and injured or killed get the usual unhappies, and the wizard may be accused of assault or murder).

"The secrets of the earth are revealed!" (underground map tiles are revealed in the same way as if downstairs had been dug above them; result of a diviner/geomancer expending mana).

"<deity>'s light shines around Urist McSaint.  The Turtle Demon is struck down!  Urist McSaint collapses!" (divine mage / priest / saint expends mana accumulated by time and faith and triggered by close proximity to a citizen of the HFS, but due to mana overdraw / low Divine Magic skill they are knocked unconcious as a result).

"Urist McSacrificalVictim was discovered, ritually slain!" (black savant in your population grabbed a victim out of LOS of anyone else and killed them in order to gain mana).


Some suggested underlying general principles:

- Magi are born that way, very rarely (perhaps 1 out of 100 has any potential at all).

- Each magus gains mana related to a specific set of circumstances or events (only when outside, only at night, only when underground proportional to depth, only when within 10 tiles of a living being dying, only when walking in water, only when within 10 tiles of magma or fire, etc).

- Mana goes away when expended. 

- Magic causes effects already existing in the game (creation of water, magma, magma mist, smoke, mist, or miasma, healing or causing injuries, deadly dust / flame clouds, syndromes, revealing hidden tiles, killing trees/shrubs/animals, deconstructing buildings, creating walls, increasing or lowering the temperature, digging/channelling or restoring natural stone/sand/soil tiles, summoning or banishing demons, animating or turning undead, causing fear).

- In small quantities, it causes effects that are barely noticeable (slight temporary raise in temperature for a pyromancer, unexplained pile on sand on the ground for a geomancer, a single miasma cloud for an air or death magus, etc).

- Large expenditures of mana create correspondingly larger effects.

- A skill exists (Sorcery?) that permits a sorceror to prevent random effects and build up higher levels of mana for release.  This skill is hidden, just like being a vampire.

- Magi can either know of their talents (and develop the Sorcery skill) or be ignorant/fearful of their abilities and only release power accidentally.  Magi will release power when in an environment or near entity that would be an appropriate target, and when their built-up mana is above a minimum threshold and below a maximum threshold.  When mana goes beyond the maximum threshold it is released immediately, regardless of whether there is an appropriate target (miscast / manaburn / etc).

- Accumulating mana gives the dwarf a happy thought.  Dwarves that know about their abilities will seek out or create events that give them more mana when they are On Break (in the same way as a vampire hunting).  Releasing mana also gives a happy thought.

- Dwarves that witness unnatural events gain an unhappy thought proportional to the mana involved.  Witnesses may also "report a crime" of Witchcraft.

[PersonGuy]

Something i should have listed earlier is the specific ways of how powers are obtained or learned and this is something that needs to be thought out before anything else here is a list of some these suggestions may possibly decide what is given or the level of power of the abilities given.

. Dreams during sleep or sudden visions in which a person receives knowledge from some supernatural force and this can tie into hermetic magic which may lead to Sorcery/pacts and likely divine primarily maybe plays parts in other forms of magic. This is something like the receive instructions to do such and such that leads to possibly with some effort more powers being discovered.

. Supernatural breeding or blessing(likely ties in with sorcery/pacts) this is where a supernatural being has intercourse with a mortal or such and such and the child of the union has supernatural powers and maybe even the descendants of any union between the child and other mortals. The other is where for some reason a supernatural being is coerced into blessing a person and their descendants with some being likely with a price or code of conduct that needs to be upheld this may tie into with a person being spontaneously born with a magic ability but may just be limited to said person.

. Divine favor where someone prays or takes onto themselves a quest in the name of a deity or is favored they receive aid that may be called on or come randomly they may give objects of power like how in the current version slabs of necromancy are occasionally given out to temples dedicated to a god of death.

. The machinations of fate where for some reason a object of power or knowledge appears before someone or in something or a power manifests in a person for reasons unknown to any being in the world this may tie into artifacts or certain forms of magic such as the previously mentioned Sorcery/divine knowledge/the magic system where chance of failure is mentioned to be a central mechanic is mentioned comes from.