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[Sonlirain]

I am actually a frequent poster of Bay12, but I shall say this proxied to avoid drama. Why should I care? What does this do for Ukraine? Mandela is just another man.

Well was to whites in South Africa the same thing Bandera was to Poles in (what is now) Ukraine.
Both were responsible for atrocities and mass murder of civilains under the guise of patriotism/freedom and both were proclaimed heroes in their countries.

[Owlbread]

Please explain further how Nelson Mandela was responsible for the genocide of white people.

[tahujdt]

... I'd say this personally; pay your respects with words and a true epitaph - a pedestal is not needed.

*applause*

Here, here!

Here in 'Muricah, we are flying our flags at half mast. That is the most extravagant thing we are doing (that I am aware of.) At my school, That One Hippie Teacher™ showed us various and sundry videos about him, instead of taking a test like we were going to. (My class is Honors, and we are so far ahead of all the others that they couldn't see us with a telescope, even if they could figure out what it was used for.) One of my friends put a sign on his locker that said "Thank you Mr. Mandela! We will miss you!".

Two of the pastors at my church are South African (though white), so we will probably be hearing about this during this week's sermon.

[Sonlirain]

Please explain further how Nelson Mandela was responsible for the genocide of white people.

By being the leader and co-founder of this group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

Bombings, torture, executions, placing landmines on busy roads (stopped doing that only because it killed more blacks than whites).

[Loud Whispers]

there are no paragons

I'd say with confidence people like Gandhi and Bayard Rustin were paragons. They started off facing injustices within an enforced and powerful system, refused to abuse it, changed most of whatever flawed views they started with and non-violently led movements that shaped much of the modern world. And those are just amongst the really well-known examples.

[Leafsnail]

Mandela had long been in prison by the time of the lethal attacks listed on that page.  As far as I'm aware all the bombings he organized resulted in no casualties, which is why he wasn't charged with murder during his trial.

[Owlbread]

I'd say with confidence people like Gandhi and Bayard Rustin were paragons. They started off facing injustices within an enforced and powerful system, refused to abuse it, changed most of whatever flawed views they started with and non-violently led movements that shaped much of the modern world. And those are just amongst the really well-known examples.

Gandhi was no paragon. He was just as flawed as Mandela in a lot of ways, though many of them on a personal level such as his misogyny, his neglect of his wife and family and racism towards black South Africans:

“Why, of all places in Johannesburg, the Indian location should be chosen for dumping down all kaffirs of the town, passes my comprehension.
Of course, under my suggestion, the Town Council must withdraw the Kaffirs from the Location. About this mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians I must confess I feel most strongly. I think it is very unfair to the Indian population, and it is an undue tax on even the proverbial patience of my countrymen. “

And his general weakness/insipidity as a leader and Hindhu nationalism led partly to the partition and division of India. No human being is a saint. I refuse to believe in such people, even Bayard Rustin would make mistakes. Mandela has conformed to essentially everything in your definition besides non-violence, which in his case was only adopted in desperation.

By being the leader and co-founder of this group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umkhonto_we_Sizwe

Bombings, torture, executions, placing landmines on busy roads (stopped doing that only because it killed more blacks than whites).

There is a difference there in that what MK were fighting for was not to exterminate the whites or cleanse South Africa or similar, just to keep up pressure on the Apartheid government. They are in much the same league as the IRA, though they arguably have more legitimacy given the brutality of the regime they were fighting.

[Remalle]

And what's your point?  Are you saying we should discount all the good they did do?  If you chose to ignore all the good that's been done by flawed people, there wouldn't be very much to celebrate in the world.

[Owlbread]

And what's your point?  Are you saying we should discount all the good they did do?  If you chose to ignore all the good that's been done by flawed people, there wouldn't be very much to celebrate in the world.

If you had read what I had been saying earlier on that is exactly my point, there is no disagreement between me and you there. The fact that people like Gandhi and Mandela were flawed actually inspires me even more. Loud Whispers was trying to conjure ideas of "paragons" though that I completely disagreed with.

[Mictlantecuhtli]

Remember folks, a couple character flaws and not being Scottish make you unqualified as a force for good.


Edit: I disagree with your semantics. Your post is clearly trying to hand wave the good they've done in an attempt to knock them for being humans.

[Owlbread]

Remember folks, a couple character flaws and not being Scottish make you unqualified as a force for good.

Frustratingly I was saying the exact opposite.

Remember folks, a couple character flaws and not being Scottish make you unqualified as a force for good.


Edit: I disagree with your semantics. Your post is clearly trying to hand wave the good they've done in an attempt to knock them for being humans.

No, no, no. Blast it. That's just such a misrepresentation. I'm trying to show they're not paragons, this semi-mythical force of perfect goodness. Nobody is and nobody has been, we're human beings. I prefer to call people like that "heroes" because it allows for recognition of their flaws and admiration for the things that they have accomplished. The fact that they are genuinely men of flesh and blood endears them to me even more and allows me to relate to them, and I would hope others can learn from their example. I certainly find it easier to learn from the example of flawed men and women than I do messiahs. All of my heroes are like this.

Please read my previous posts in this thread (I noticed you used "post" i.e. the singular rather than plural) before you attack my semantics there. I've got that line from Cool Hand Luke in my head right now - "What we have here is a failure to communicate."

[Loud Whispers]

Mandela had long been in prison by the time of the lethal attacks listed on that page.  As far as I'm aware all the bombings he organized resulted in no casualties, which is why he wasn't charged with murder during his trial.

They did indeed seem to all be non-lethal forms of sabotage, with the worst atrocities being done by his wife Winnie Mandela. However, he was the one to order the shell house massacre when he was president; there is blood on his hands.

Frustratingly I was saying the exact opposite.

It is quite unfortunate how arguing about something will invariably lend you to seem in favour of it.
In regards to Gandhi, his racism towards black South Africans was one of the views I was talking about him reconciling; he originally supported a white minority rule of South Africa and of course didn't hold that view for much longer. I'm unsure as to what changed on his views towards women, if they changed at all, so you do present a convincing point there at least.

I suppose in the end it all boils down to what each figure symbolizes. Individually no one person is a paragon, yet if they become a symbol for the fight against some oppressive power like Apartheid or a fight for civil rights, we will be loathe to remember their flaws till they become the mythical paragon.

[TCM]

Despite my declaration in the original post, it looks like the argumentative phase of this thread is about to be in order. The transition tells me that everyone who originally wanted to express their feelings of Mandela's passing in this thread already have, which really was my only goal. Thus, the thread ends here. I'm sure the lot of you want bring out what you know, but contesting various pieces of evidence against each other and dissecting what constitutes a 'paragon' isn't what this thread is for. So, I'm wrapping things up  with my own views in the most laconic expression I can:

Eternal peace unto your soul Nelson Mandela.