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[Tiruin]

There goes a paragon, shining still.

[Sheb]

Actually learned it yesterday evening when some drunken guy stumbled in the party I was in shouting "Mandela is dead!". Kinda surreal. RIP Mandela, this planet is a bit worse for your leaving.

[Helgoland]

Let's just hope that South Africa gets its act together - I heard some pretty worrying things about the ANC, and now that Mandela is gone... Wel'll just have to wait and see.

[Loud Whispers]

World's a worse place without him.
I find it quite amazing that he managed to remove apartheid without much in the way of bloodshed. He'll certainly be missed.

I suppose you'll have to put lots of emphasis on 'much.'

There goes a paragon, shining still.

And this is an overstatement. Apartheid was horrendous, yet all those who opposed it were not paragons. When you no longer narrow your targets to the government and instead begin bombing civilians, your cause begins losing its justness. When you start torturing people and executing them in particularly cruel fashion by tire, blood and fire, there is no question about overstepping the ethical mark. Mandela's backing of and backing from Gaddafi was known and strong, South Africa was one of the strongest supporters for the freedom of the Lockerbie bombers, and his soft treatment of corruption, murderers and rapists has allowed a system of the cyclical abandonment of ethics that has caused the life expectancy of black South Africans to steadily fall from 1993 till today and caused the skilled professional white South Africans to flee elsewhere en masse. He left the prison a better person, that is for sure; yet fighting an injustice does not give good cause to forget the blood that was spilled and the mistakes that were made.
He was flawed, failed in some regards and was mostly moral after he gained presidency at least. But a paragon few people will ever be, and Mandela was most certainly not. I'd say this personally; pay your respects with words and a true epitaph - a pedestal is not needed.

[Lectorog]

... I'd say this personally; pay your respects with words and a true epitaph - a pedestal is not needed.

*applause*

[LordSlowpoke]

snipped for quality

considered saying something like this, thought i'd fuck up and get a shitstorm on my hands again

you nailed it though

* LordSlowpoke stands up and claps vigorously

[Leafsnail]

South Africa was one of the strongest supporters for the freedom of the Lockerbie bombers

(mainly because it was an obvious miscarriage of justice)

Like the whole case came down to one witness.  One witness whose initial description was absolutely nothing like al-Megrahi, whose testimony is riddled with holes and who received a large bribe reward from the US government after testifying.

[Eclectic Wizard]

Sweet dreams, old Mandela. o7 *salute*

[Remalle]

I'll say it once more; requiescat in pace, Tata Madiba.  You stood for and did more for unity and peace than many who claim it to be their goal.  You stand as a beacon guiding us towards a world better than the one you left behind.  Regardless of your critics, regardless of what your methods may have been, you showed the world that it can be better.  You will be missed by many and remembered for a long time.  May your name continue to stand for the struggle towards unity, and the fight against injustice, intolerance and oppression.  Rest in peace.

Also, it irks me that what's-his-face from those movies is still getting mourned harder than you.

[Ura]

I am actually a frequent poster of Bay12, but I shall say this proxied to avoid drama. Why should I care? What does this do for Ukraine? Mandela is just another man.

[Sheb]

Ukrainian Ranger?

[LordSlowpoke]

Ukrainian Ranger?

SHH

he's not particularly good at proxying you see

[Owlbread]

I think Mandela should have done far, far more to acknowledge and combat the spread of HIV/AIDS in South Africa and Africa as a whole. He should have done far more to condemn the course the ANC took after his departure leading right up to its current leader Jacob Zuma, who is looking more and more like an autocrat as time goes on. Corruption runs rampant in the ANC. The fact that Zuma could act the way that he does, crushing free speech and using deadly force on protestors, while Mandela would remain silent irritated me. Now I understand though that the man was so terribly weakened by his time in prison, his struggles with TB, advanced age and what looked to me like some kind of dementia that he did the best that he could for South Africa.

I don't need to dispense of the arguments about the Lockerbie bomber or Gaddafi or anything like that because Sheb has done enough. All I feel the need to say is that there are no saints in history. Contrary to what Loud Whispers says, there are no paragons but Mandela, like Lincoln, is one of the closest examples of such people that you will see. There are some people that can be described as heroes and heroines, a description I prefer because it allows for acknowledgement of their flaws. "Paragon" implies some kind of mythical Christ-like figure. I would prefer to call Mandela a hero.

I am actually a frequent poster of Bay12, but I shall say this proxied to avoid drama. Why should I care? What does this do for Ukraine? Mandela is just another man.

Well Ukrainian Ranger, nothing directly. He just might inspire you though if you look at his life and his struggles for the independence of African people. The fact that he really was just another man makes it more powerful I think.

[Rilder]

Rest In Peace, Comrade.

[AlleeCat]

We must use time wisely and forever realize that the time is always ripe to do right.

I think he used his time very wisely. He will definitely be missed.