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Author Topic: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.  (Read 85353 times)

neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #855 on: June 09, 2014, 07:38:35 pm »

hopefully most of the subsequent bug fixing releases won't break save compatibility.
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TeleDwarf

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #856 on: June 10, 2014, 01:12:54 am »

Do not forget about the tools. No DF without the DT. Also binary patches and DFHack are a must. Any release(even bugfixing) will likely break those tools.
If there indeed will be a release 'early next month' I expect all the needed tools to be updated around early autumn.
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neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #857 on: June 10, 2014, 01:29:24 am »

autumn is subjective to where you live.
I sincerely hope you don't mean march (which is autumn for me)
did we use dfhack at all?  I don't use DT but i assume you were using it the whole time, so that would suck, I  just feel like it would be super painful to have all these new features in our own games but having to go backwards if you get to be overseer....
I'm keeping my vote to wait for df2014... no matter how long it takes
(also teledwarf if you don't want to respect democracy that's cool, this is YOUR thing)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 01:31:51 am by neblime »
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kero42

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #858 on: June 10, 2014, 06:32:03 pm »

Hm, I do wonder.

While the next version will likely be out soon, it could take a time to get rid of any outstanding bugs or the like. Then we have to take into account the add-ons, (which we mentioned using earlier, though I suppose they aren't entirely needed) which will probably not be compatible on update.

After that, we have to think about the time it will take to adjust to the changes and become accustomed to the new features. Unfamiliar details could end our fort quite early on in, which while a natural part of the learning process of DF that I am looking forward to, is not conductive to this sort of game.

So this could take quite a while longer than I first expected. I'm willing to play now or later, so I can't really vote on it.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2014, 06:49:21 pm by kero42 »
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Something I find interesting and thought I should share: DF from scratch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127552.0

neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #859 on: June 10, 2014, 08:19:21 pm »

yeah ok maybe i'm being stubborn here... I was primarily worried about bug fixing patches breaking compatibility, but i hadn't given any thought to bugs themselves...
Alright then nevermind df2014, at least as far as I'm concerned.
If we're going to do this current version, what are we waiting for?
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kero42

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #860 on: June 11, 2014, 01:38:01 pm »

I suppose we should think about what did/didn't work last time, and how to change it. I cannot think of any outstanding issues at the moment though, besides what has already been mentioned (embark size and beginning skills, for example).

We should also move this (the game, not this specific thread) to community games when we start, right?
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Something I find interesting and thought I should share: DF from scratch: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127552.0

neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #861 on: June 11, 2014, 07:58:24 pm »

I assumed we would start a new thread when the time came.
If we're going to have rotating overseers, how do you become one?
Do we just have a council election each year?
Do we bring influence into your ability to become overseer or not?
Also maybe there should be some kind of punishment, influence or otherwise, for not carrying out people's wishes as overseer
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Elorf

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #862 on: June 13, 2014, 09:08:43 am »

I assumed we would start a new thread when the time came.
If we're going to have rotating overseers, how do you become one?
Do we just have a council election each year?
Do we bring influence into your ability to become overseer or not?
Also maybe there should be some kind of punishment, influence or otherwise, for not carrying out people's wishes as overseer
The way I imagine the overseer would be that only senators can be chosen, that every senator has his own vote and that the citizen liaison votes for the public.

An election every year would slow things down a bit wouldn't it? With four years we can make progress and don't be interrupted with elections, in the worst case we adjust the amount of time during the game.

A minimum amount of influence would be good, but if only senators can be chosen then you expect them to already have some influence. As for punishing overseers... That's something that can be arranged IC, if the senate/people are unhappy with the overseer some kind of vote could be set up.
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TeleDwarf

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #863 on: June 13, 2014, 05:00:24 pm »

Generally we are giving some time for people to gather around and manifest their thoughts. If you guys feel that we have chatted enough - we can start asap.

Yes, we will have another thread in 'community games' with a few reserved posts for organization.


Now I really like how influence system worked. It could be worthwhile to expand influence-weighted votes and influence-consuming actions.
It would be really cool if we had actions that need both influence and position to perform, like: be a senator and spend X influence to start a vote; spend Y influebnce to start a vote even if you are not a senator; be a squad leader and spend Z influence to conscript someone, even if he does not want to serve; spend a W influence to create your very own squad(and do whatever you like with it; spend V influence(value-based) and still have more influence then current holder to usurp something (house, artifact, position...)

It would also be nice to have every single item to be owned by someone. Not sure if we could pull it off organization-wise, but it would be really awesome.

Also I think it would be awesome to somehow limit the possible influence, maybe capping it depending on the fortress population or created wealth? Maybe both?
For example we start with 4 PC and 3 NPC, no wealth. 4 PC gain 10 influence(for being players) and 3 NPC commit 3 more unused influence that can be acquired through influence rules. If more NPC enter our fortress - we get more unused influence. If some of them die - unused influence they commited is erased. Created wealth increases unused influence, destroyed wealth decreases it. Artifacts adds their linked influence directly to owner.
Now positions are actually 'condenced influence': people create positions with their influence and receive titles granting that influence instead. So you acquire additional political options in exchange of increased risk(as title and it's associated influence can be separated from you.

Now let's discuss this a bit before moving forward.
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neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #864 on: June 13, 2014, 05:23:08 pm »

I guess we can always change the term, so yeah lets go with four years.  I suppose being on the council provides something of an influence barrier already.

Cool ideas tele, maybe if you're a senator (for example) all non senatorial actions cost 1 less influence (maybe with a minimum of 1 maybe not?)
items would be very hard to organize, but there's no reason we can't get our own house at least and cram it full of everything we can get our hands on.
Having limited influence sounds pretty cool, so maybe there's a total influence pool to go around, and whenever you gain or lose influence it comes out of/returns to that pool?
i'm not sure 3 per NPC is enough.. maybe 4 or 5?
let me think of some position specific actions.. anyone else got any ideas?
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neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #865 on: June 14, 2014, 04:43:54 am »

Ok how about;
Every pc adds 10 influence to the pool,
Evert npc (adult) adds 4
Every 50k created wealth adds 1 (this could afford to add more but i'm worried about near unlimited influence pool as wealth increases)
Artifacts add 2 base influence +1 per 50k value, which is immediately attached to the owner
Peasant actions would generally cost 1or 2 influence, but free or cheaper for council members, council actions might cost between 2-10 depending which action, and SOME might be done for peasants at double or more cost, also a minimum influence, i was thinking 20 or so?
What do people think.  I think we should also probably soften the penalties for failes votes to balance the cost of actions
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Dwarf4Explosives

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #866 on: June 14, 2014, 10:44:22 am »

Seems good, but I think a longer list of things that can be done using influence could be useful.
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neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #867 on: June 15, 2014, 10:28:44 pm »

well for a start, I think making your own squad with only you in it shouldn't cost anything, all it really means is you can be ordered to fight,  getting equipment or Meatshields NPCs in your squad however could have associated costs, also there's the matter of being conscripted into more official squads (which would be determined by either the council or some specific position.. recruiter maybe?)
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neblime

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #868 on: June 16, 2014, 06:24:35 am »

hey can DFhack make dwarves hostile?  because I was thinking we could actually have guilds fight each other (or the council send in the official troops or w/e) if things get REALLY serious
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TeleDwarf

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Re: Dwarven Metropolitan Area. A DF-assisted forum RPG.
« Reply #869 on: June 16, 2014, 01:07:24 pm »

Influence balancing considerations:
Ok, so if we will get like 10 politically active players and 10 politically passive players/spectators that is 200 influence.
My initial idea was to have 1 influence per npc serf, that is 200 more influence in full fort.
If that would be 4/npc(as suggested by Neblime) then it will be 800 influence.

If we add here general wealth and artifacts - we will be swimming in free influence in no time. So my idea was to severely limit the available influence so that it would become an ever-present constraint on our deeds and plans.
That is just a tiny clarification. If we feel that we need more influence to play with - I am fine with that.

Influence actions, titles and whatsnot
Remember how in our previous game we had "a tradition": bonus for being a soldier? Well, now to get anything that is tied to "is a soldier" and "is a squad leader" check can be accessed without anyone else involved:
You just declare that from now on you are a squad leader of your own squad: you invest part of your influence intop creation of a new squad and vuala - you are a cool squad leader. It is not always a wise thing to do though, as you basically tie part of your influence to your title. The title can be usurped by someone else (mutineer soldier, government...) and you will be depreved of your hard-earned influence. On the other hand this can be acceptable risk if you want to use the title as a trade item: create a title and give it to someone else (to boost his influence or when hiring personal guard). And of course you could want to create it in order to access linked options like claiming that someone is a coward or maybe actually conscripting some peasants and outfitting that squad.

Items ,private property and starting RP
My idea was to have some relatively relaxed way of tracking ownership in OOC way. There is no need to track clothes, food and stuff like that because there is really very little we can do to control that stuff. But virtually everything else can be tracked rather
easy by imposing some restrictions on how we actually play the game. Let me give a brief example:

Elorf decides that he wants to be a carpenter. He creates a backstory for his character and notifies us what he takes with him(a trusty axe) for a journey and which skills he is good at(woodcutting, carpentry, axefighting).
Right from the start he goes to do his thing - to cut some wood(Let's say he needs 40 trunks), then creates a workshop and begins to create beds. Now he owns: axe, some trunks, some beds, a workshop in the middle of nowhere.
Since our maop will be much smaller this time - all space will initially belong to our small tribe collectively, so in order to have a home Elorf now needs to reach an agreement with other members about where his house will be and how big his plot will be. He has a rather nice commodity though - nice beds of a fine quality. He decides to gift 4 of those to fellow dwarves in return for a nice piece of land by the river.
Since now Elorf has more work before him then he can handle - he decides to use his influence (maybe boosted a bit by now) to hire an NPC lumberjack and concentrate his own efforts on honing his carpentry skill and furnishing his home.
10 years from now Elorf will be one of the wealthiest dwarves in our fortress, legendary carpenter, head of the carpenter's guild and have a bllod feauds with both mason's guild and a spliner high master carpenter Cain.

That of course will add some strain to the overseer, but with overseer rotation it may be not that unbearable for the benefits we might get.

I also think that spoils of war (goblinite) should go to the victorious squad leader, who can then decide what to do with them. That is yet another reason to create your own squad.

Note: in this setup npc peasants should not be allowed to do anything but haul, farm, hunt, fish, cook, brew and make clothes, unless hired or conscripted by a player.

hey can DFhack make dwarves hostile?  because I was thinking we could actually have guilds fight each other (or the council send in the official troops or w/e) if things get REALLY serious
I do not think it will be easy not to trigger a loyalty cascade or something. I originally thought of creating "replicas" of feuding dwarves in the arena and let them duke it out.

Edit: P.S. All that will of course hurt efficiency of our fort, and that alone is quite a good reason to do it. DF2012 is way too easy as it stands. Maybe, just maybe, we will actually lose? ;)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2014, 01:12:03 pm by TeleDwarf »
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