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[TeleDwarf]

OOC:
There are 3 other guys who can vote on this but it seems they're inactive as i've yet to see a post of them since i joined this.

Fire is sometimes about, been having some rl stuff IIRC.

And of course there are negotiations, bribes, intimidation and such, so senators can change their opinion multiple times within  voting time limit.

[FireCrazy]

..since you guys are talking about me, im posting to say that i am currently posting my opinion. just takes a bit of time to write it up.

[neblime]

Current peasant-grade graves are 1x2, dug in soil, but have an advantage of having an easy-accessible slab for mourning relatives to mourn.
requiremetn of a square 2x2 room for every single useless serf sounds a bit far-fetched to me, especially the requirement to do it in stone. It would be tolerable to have such arranements for important members of society (legendary, influential, rich, etc...), but for those piss-poor workers? I have to oppose:
For: 3
Against: 1

While they yet live, breathe, and spout complaints to torment our ears, they do not deserve even a muddy puddle lest they earn it with labour!
However, once they die their immortal souls are equal to all others, and should be treated as such.  I implore you and kerod to change your votes!

Spoiler: A p.s. to kerod (click to show/hide)

check your PMs please

[TeleDwarf]

The whole idea of a global standardization of burial is not well thought out:
We may have guilds, who wish to immure their heroes into their halls, to inspire young apprentices (Maybe Urist would be better off entombed inside the carpenter's guild hall?).
We may have soldiers on an eternal duty immured into the city walls.
We may have peasant families starting their own cult of the dead by building shrines for notable family members.
And certain criminals, cowards, rebels and marauders may be unworthy even of the square of land where their body stands? Maybe they should not be buried at all, and they would be well served by the unlife among the zombies and vampires of the sewers?

We should not think ahead of ourselves that far. in many cases family of the deceased will be well capable of arranging the burial, and when the public service is involved - we can decide on the spot, according to individual's feats.

Furthermore, burial places are known to attract mourners. Do we really want a lot of traffic inside our mines? what about mining incidents? would it really be prudent to subject our dead serfs to the risks of submerging or cave ins?

[neblime]

It is not necessary for the burial plots to be in the mines, that is not stipulated in the law, they may be buried in a seperate site.
Also in this case it is clear that urist's family is NOT capable of dealing with his burial themselves, as none of them are miners!
Division of labour would serve them, if the miners were motivated by law!
As I said, are an individual's feats relevant, when it is the immortal soul we are taking into consideration?  yes, great dwarves and their great deeds may be memorialized to inspire others, but the basic requirements of the peasant is the same as that of the greatest Lord.

[TeleDwarf]

It is not necessary for the burial plots to be in the mines, that is not stipulated in the law, they may be buried in a seperate site.
Also in this case it is clear that urist's family is NOT capable of dealing with his burial themselves, as none of them are miners!
Division of labour would serve them, if the miners were motivated by law!
As I said, are an individual's feats relevant, when it is the immortal soul we are taking into consideration?  yes, great dwarves and their great deeds may be memorialized to inspire others, but the basic requirements of the peasant is the same as that of the greatest Lord.

If the law would mention only the baseline for the prominent dwarves - I would be be all for it, but I believe that a spoiled body hosts a spoiled soul, and therefore villains and serfs should not be as honored as those who actually did their duty right. And being fat and lazy enough to be killed by a goblin or a drunk berserk is not a prominent feat.

Also law suggests to use rough stone when possible, and it is only possible in mines, under the aquifer level.

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

Real senatorial debate? oh goodies...

[FireCrazy]

Okay so, after thinking about it, Im going with Teledwarf's line of reasoning, so:

IC:
Neblime Inkydances (+10) Proposes a law (The dignified Burial act)

While I agree with you on the matter that the dwarven dead have to be cared for properly and luxuriously, I do not agree to the use of our resources to create over-luxurious stone tombs for every single peasant that dies. The 1x2 space for peasants is already very enough, and good enough for the dead to sleep peacefully without interruption. I do not want to be buried the same way as a dwarven criminal, by the way.

For: 2
Against: 3

OOC:
....i'm going to have to work on my character sheet a little bit more.

[kero42]

Dwarf4explosives (+10) Proposes a law (The Dwarven Culture act)
Council Votes:
For: 1
Against: 0
Dwarves are noble creatures, and as such, their hard work should be honored. If done properly, this area can also serve as a simple overview of past acts.
The Dwarven Culture Act:
A long hallway shall be dedicated to historical events. (Important/valuable) artifacts shall be put behind glass walls. Sieges shall be marked with two goblin corpses, snatchers with one (again, behind glass). Important dwarven historical figures shall also have a slab here. Large engineering projects shall be marked with either miniaturized versions, or small lava or water circulation systems if these are deemed to unwieldy to miniaturize.This hallway will present these items in chronological order.

IC: Nay. The marking of sieges with the corspes of our enemies is disrespectful and grotesque, we are surely above it. the sealing of artifacts would be a waste of such fine work. If people wish to remember the dead, then they will visit their grave, where slabs will be kept anyway. If you wish to commemorate events, then a slab by the road or inside the long hall shall suffice. The people should have little need of a museum to appreciate our culture, such refinement shall be obvious to all who visit.

My friends, instead of building such a monument to progress, let this settlement be that monument! Let it be in the very land that our greatness is shown, where our efforts to revolutionize the living standards is made evident. Is that not our sole purpose for beginning this task? Is it not why we are here, to incorporate the structures of others into a glorious, dwarven led utopia? To nurture the kings grand idea into fruition? I implore you to reconsider such an idea.

OOC: (lol, decide to practice making ham-fisted speeches. Did it seem suitably self-aggrandizing to you?) Overall, I simply don't think this would be worth the effort, -1.

Current peasant-grade graves are 1x2, dug in soil, but have an advantage of having an easy-accessible slab for mourning relatives to mourn.
requiremetn of a square 2x2 room for every single useless serf sounds a bit far-fetched to me, especially the requirement to do it in stone. It would be tolerable to have such arranements for important members of society (legendary, influential, rich, etc...), but for those piss-poor workers? I have to oppose:
For: 3
Against: 1

While they yet live, breathe, and spout complaints to torment our ears, they do not deserve even a muddy puddle lest they earn it with labour!
However, once they die their immortal souls are equal to all others, and should be treated as such.  I implore you and kerod to change your votes!

[/spoiler]

IC: I would agree to change my mind, if only for you, my friend. The souls of the dead must surely be pleased to gain tomb befitting their needs. My Vote regarding the issue of burial has changed:

For:3 (me, neblime, D4X)
Against: 2 (Tele and FireCrazy)

I assume that you would be open to reconsider this issue on a future date, yes? The points raised by Tele still hold sway, so I would profess an amendment that we be able to contest certain cases, and allow the deceased family and friends have some influence. The proposed plan would be baseline, but we must consider those who knew the dead, who may know of any special requirements the dead would ask, were they able to speak.

[neblime]

It saddens me we cannot agree teledwarf, is it not in the spirit of our mission that we go above and beyond what is usually expected?
Conditions for all citizens, Peasant or Patrician, should be better than the mountainhomes.
(edit)
My thanks to you Kerod Picknotch for seeing reason, surely we can amend the law later, however we must establish the basics first!

Spoiler: ooc (click to show/hide)

Hehe, and a fairly important issue! (in my eyes anyway)

[neblime]

Dwarf4Explosive (+10) Proposes the dwarven culture act
For:1
Against:2
Surely you do not suggest making totems and displays out of the corpses of sapient beings?  Such an idea is against my very nature, and, I am sure against the nature of all the sensible council members.
The other aspects have some merit, but perhaps we should focus on more robust and practical things while we are still undeveloped.

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

also, a quick note about council only votes, does anyone protest that if we reach 4 votes either way for a particular vote, we end it right there without chance for people to change their mind, to represent snap votes made before much rhetoric can occur?

[FireCrazy]

IC:

Dwarf4Explosiver (+10) Proposes the dwarven culture act

Agreeing with Neblime on this. We do not have the dwarfpower to build such a museum, when we have other pressing matters such as goblin invasions to defend against, and it would be a waste to place our artifact steel armor or sword behind a glass window just so everyone can look at.

For:1
Against:3

OOC:
I thought persuading others to change minds and bribery and blackmailing and all that stuff was supposed to be part of it, i dunno.

[TeleDwarf]

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

also, a quick note about council only votes, does anyone protest that if we reach 4 votes either way for a particular vote, we end it right there without chance for people to change their mind, to represent snap votes made before much rhetoric can occur?

Maybe we can make such votes shorter by default? like 12 hours instead of 24? And if any rhetoric happens - it becomes a full-fledged 24h. vote. Otherwise it would be possible to abuse the system too much by pre-arranging friendly senators to vote before anyone can convince them.

[neblime]

Spoiler: ooc (click to show/hide)

Maybe we can make such votes shorter by default? like 12 hours instead of 24? And if any rhetoric happens - it becomes a full-fledged 24h. vote. Otherwise it would be possible to abuse the system too much by pre-arranging friendly senators to vote before anyone can convince them.

ok, if we agree that rhetoric is posts separate to the actual vote post, so it's clear when someone just wants to voice their opinions, or actually try and persuade people.

[Hahayeah]

Sure, Won't need to wait as long for the vote to end. Anyway, Like i said earlier i'm interested to see what 129 has in store for us and thus i ask again: Are there any further discussions or can we advance time? Should we wait for the votes to end or should we advance time immediately, I put a OOC vote for advancing time in gorgedadmired, No influence changes, Just to see if people want to advance time. Also i'd prefer if this vote would end in 1-2 hours and not in 12-24 hours.
For:1
Against:0
EDIT: I know i'm not the overseer but i'm sure Teledwarf wouldn't mind to see if people want to advance time or not, We vote and teledwarf should say if we advance or not after the vote ends.

[Dwarf4Explosives]

I have changed my vote on the "Dignified Burial Act" to "against", so the current vote is:

For:2
Against:4

I would very happily change the "Dwarven Culture Act", if we could agree upon a suitable alternative to goblin corpses. Maybe a goblin weapon?

EDIT: The revised version would then be

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The Dwarven Culture Act:
A long hallway shall be dedicated to historical events. (Important/valuable) artifacts shall be put behind glass walls. Sieges shall be marked with a single whip, snatchers with a sword (again, behind glass). Important dwarven historical figures shall also have a slab here. Large engineering projects shall be marked with either miniaturized versions, or small lava or water circulation systems if these are deemed to unwieldy to miniaturize. This hallway will present these items in chronological order.