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[kero42]

Section A should become a cat sanctuary and temple to Armok. Maybe it could also house the military, prisoners and arena. It could be a well fortified place to retreat to when things go sour.

While I agree with the general idea, I would argue we should make temples for the in-game deities, the ones that can actually have worshippers. It would allow for more variety in design, and we could even appoint a small clergy (through custom job titles and the like) if we so wished.

As for the retreat for 'when things go sour', I believe that's our noble strongholds function, for the nobles of course, but I'm sure We'll open it to the peasantry in times of need, *).
(In all seriousness, I think fortifying the area around our long-hall could make good retreat for those not living in the manor, it has the food and drink, and the hospital nearby should help.)

[neblime]

OOC

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Based on kero42's comment i wildly assumed some kind of precedent needed to be set on how to record our character.  I thought we could rate certain things about our characters on a scale of 1-10. (if you want to colour it, shall we agree 1-2 = red 3-4 = orange 5-6 = yellow 7-9 = green and 10 = blue?)
You can consider this a draft until teledwarf approves, open to alternatives/suggestions!

Now this may look quite complex, but it isnt really once its setup, and I think we should put alot of effort into it anyway if we have 5 days of non game time to mess around with our characters.
personality is based on this http://arlenequinn.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/hbdi-brain-model1.jpg
(more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herrmann_Brain_Dominance_Instrument)
I think its a good way to summarize basic facets of personality, do what you think your character is most like!
I'm open to a suggestion of a different way to summarize personality but i think this is the simplest/easiest that still gives good detail.
Likes/dislikes is, well, what kind of things the character dislikes, be they objects, ideas or what have you.  Just put whatever you think is relevant there, if there is no preference on something no need to put it.  Then comes preferences.  These will determine what decisions your character makes (hopefully) by weighing preferences for different things when a decision arises.  You may change these as your characters opinion might change.  (same for the likes/dislikes in fact)
Industry lists the different typoes of things you think the settlement should produce/focus on.  Building will list what you think we should prioritize building, i would appreciate suggestions for different categories in that one, I can't really think of anything.  Resource preferences determine what you think we should prioritize if our resources are limited.

OOC edit 1 PLEASE READ

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So I thought we might as well keep the original preference section, but what might be more important is how much support we give other dwarves and perhaps how much influence we have over others.  How about, outside of direct decision making/voting our characters can posture themselves politically or philosophically and ALL dwarves, not just council members can give a + or - Influence on the post, which goes toward our character's total influence, also, incidental non character related events might give influence, like saving the settlement from a forgotten beast with a lucky falcon kick.  Then, when it comes to whether we have the support of the peasants or otherwise general populace the character with the most influence can make the decision, but the council cannot be usurped/influenced (unless the peasants rise up!) and they will still vote based on preference.
Also a small addition, but you'll notice just below influence i put "council member"  I thought maybe everyone could put their current political status, ranging from, migrant/labourer, Sub council noble, council family member to council member
What do you think guys?
Teledwarf I could handle recording influence from non player sources (and sort of objectivize it I hope) if you don't want to, no problem if you do want to though

Personal record of Neblime Inkydances the 1st
Recorded by Neblime Inkydances Council Secreatry
Inviligated additionally by Kerod Picknotch

Date of birth: 18th obsidian 55th year of the reign of Ingish Inkhoods

Documented services:
Drafted the Proclamation of redress of government of the slick murk of the lustrous trades
Served as a council secretary year 126 - ongoing
INFLUENCE: +10
Council Member
UNMARRIED
NO CHILDREN
UNKNOWN PARENTS

Personality:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

|0----------|logical/analytical
|----------0|Sequential/organisational
|----------0|Holistic/Intuitive
|--0--------|Interpesonal/Feeling based

Likes/dislikes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

|---------0|Government/beauracracy
|--------0-|Industry
|-------0--|The outdoors
|---0------|Socializing/friendships
|--------0-|Luxury/Finer things
|------0---|Beauty (architectural and otherwise!)
|-0--------|Nature
|-------0--|Honesty
|--------0-|Social stratification
|------0---|Conventional Warfare (i.e. not traps or magma floods or what have you)
|0---------|Partying

Industry preferences:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

|--------0-| Metalworking
|---0------|Agriculture/farming
|-------0--|Jewelery/crafts/arts
|---------0|Carpentry/Masonry/General construction
|--------0-|Woodcutting/woodworking
|---------0|Mining/stoneworking
|--0-------|Textiles
|---------0|Architecture/detailing
|0---------|Pottery/glassmaking

Building direction preferences:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

|-------0--| Building residences
|----0-----| Building service buildings (warehouses, workshops etc)
|---------0| Building official/govenmental buildings (like a council building, temple, anything only mood/rp useful basically)
|--------0-| Building Military buildings
|--0-------|Farms/pastures/Agricultural

Resource preferences:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

|-------0--|Miltiary good production
|------0---|Industry related production
|---0------|Food/Clothes/menial goods production
|---------0|Value increasing good production (crafts/gems etc)
|--------0-|Building

[neblime]

Is the aquifer leak located in a position where it may be caved in to contain it?  I find the sound of constantly flowing water can distract and slow down all fortress affairs (even falling rocks!), as others have surely observed.  If it is in such a position I vote we prioritize caving it in.  If not I vote we devote our immediate time to procuring proper armour and weapons for both peasants and council members alike, if any time remains after both/either of these affairs, I vote we devote it to constructing at least decent accomodation for council members, THEN peasants.

[TeleDwarf]

Spoiler: "On City Planning" (click to show/hide)

 
The areas Kerod marked are actually large enough to contain a whole  middle-sized settlement. We are dealing with a large 11x11 embark after all. If we consider a 3x3 embark a standard - then we have almost 16 times more space.
While it allows us to be more generous in allocating land and almost always ignore the third dimension of DF, we should still not spread too thin. If our crafters will spend all of their time walking to bed and to tavern and then on break - when will they work?
Our fortress(because of it's idea, you know, being above ground and not impregnable and without trap halls...) will be full of crippled dwarves, many of them(due to the skill of our doctors and general dwarven stupidity) will not have crutches. Our professional military will also have a lot of crippled dwarves, and will also be steel-clad... that pretty much means that they will be VEEERY slow.
Just a snap fact about distances we are dealing with: Lord_lemonpie haven't started a single hunt yet. Yes, he is a lousy hunter, sure, but with all that wildlife we have moving around and all this time he just sneaks around the treas back and forth without a single shot.

Also randomly throwing red rectangles with red letters on them is neither too immersive, nor precise enough to know where boundaries really are. Maybe we could first map whole area and decide on the names of local features? Like, you know, name our three rivers, name marshlands or bigger lakes, name waterfalls, cliffs, hills and valleys, forests and such... all naturally divided by natural features and named accordingly. Valley of the Dead, Cliff of Heroes, Hill of Ok (dwarven god), Jeweled Stream, Central Marsh, Haunted Forest, etc... those are just a few examples we could use from the tip of my beard. I am sure you can create much better names... Then we can start renaming things according to the site history. After a hero, who died there, after a battle, after an incident, artifact, idea or social process. We can even have a hermit living in a grotto named after him...

Then we could more immersively declare that this Hill is reserved for this, that Valley is for that and some other cliff is for something totally different...
It would also be extremely handy to have an architect and an urban commissioner. Architect could propose some building designs, and urban commissioner could go to the senate and say "reserve me this area and that area, and I will plan an awesome, breathtaking district for this and that there." You know, right now I am just erecting buildings randomly, without much thought about streets, squares or blocks. It is cool for now, but we will need at least some degree of order and beauty in the center of the settlement. I am pretty sure we can even have trees planted in the alleys...

Spoiler: "On Character Pages" (click to show/hide)

 
Those pages are of limited use for me:
* Will a certain character voulonteer into an army or will he hide somewhere?
* Will a character use his connections and influence to exempt his relatives and spouse from work, military service or justice?
* Will a noble tolerate the presence of a guard in his bed chamber? or will he rather risk a vampiric bite?
* Would a character like to live in the bigger house in the suburbs or in a smaller house in the city?
etc...
But those pages are of much greater use to players:
* Whom should I PM regarding the coup I am planning?
* How should I move to become a noble? Get a position of power?
* Who can help me with my current work? (Urban Commissioner to Architect. Architect to Guild Master. etc...)

Basically anything you want to get done can be done either through council or through inter-player communication: In Neblime wants a guard at his bed and War Leader can spare a soldier - there is no need for red tape. It can as well be done on an ad hoc corruption level

Spoiler: "On our small mining incident" (click to show/hide)

 
We have a lot of flowing water around due to the low height of the waterfalls, so it will not be a great issue. Mines will get submerged pretty quickly, so it will not be a constant flow.
Cave in is not quite an option because we have a nice multilevel aquifer, and if the levels above are also aquifers - we will not accomplish much by digging around without a thorough planning.
We do have 10 suits of iron armor and some iron bars. We can try to salvage as much as we can from the mine, but we will risk drowning some poor dwarves if we are too greedy.
Almost all limestones were cut into blocks, but we still have several kaolinites to carve some mechanisms for pumps.

Spoiler: "Other stuff" (click to show/hide)

I am trying to wrap my head around dfhack sources to create custom noble positions with mandates, furniture requirements and such. If you have any ideas how it should be, or what entity tags in raws mean - please do not hide such knowledge.
Wanted to write something else here, but forgot while I was writing the rest of this post

[kero42]

I will admit that the red boxes were largely arbitrary boundaries of huge spaces made in very little time. I agree that proper mapping of regions could be useful for planning purposes.

Regarding character sheets, I'll work on something based what Neblime and TeleDwarf have posted. It should hopefully allow my posts to be more IC, once I figure exactly what Kerods character is.

Don't know what to do about the flooding mine, I have very little experience with aquifers. Same with modding, so I can't help there either.

[neblime]

Also randomly throwing red rectangles with red letters on them is neither too immersive, nor precise enough to know where boundaries really are. Maybe we could first map whole area and decide on the names of local features?

I shall Produce a naming proposal at once!

Spoiler: "On Character Pages" (click to show/hide)

 
Those pages are of limited use for me:
* Will a certain character voulonteer into an army or will he hide somewhere?
* Will a character use his connections and influence to exempt his relatives and spouse from work, military service or justice?
* Will a noble tolerate the presence of a guard in his bed chamber? or will he rather risk a vampiric bite?
* Would a character like to live in the bigger house in the suburbs or in a smaller house in the city?
etc...
But those pages are of much greater use to players:
* Whom should I PM regarding the coup I am planning?
* How should I move to become a noble? Get a position of power?
* Who can help me with my current work? (Urban Commissioner to Architect. Architect to Guild Master. etc...)

Basically anything you want to get done can be done either through council or through inter-player communication: In Neblime wants a guard at his bed and War Leader can spare a soldier - there is no need for red tape. It can as well be done on an ad hoc corruption level

hmm well in that case I think some changes are in order.  While my character sheet addresses all of your questions... I think (if somewhat indirectly) I can see that the player based ones are unanswered.  If not changes, we at least need additions.  Perhaps it's more about our opinions towards other dwarves? not sure.  I'll make some changes and see how it looks. 
EDIT - done, please review!

Spoiler: "Other stuff" (click to show/hide)

I am trying to wrap my head around dfhack sources to create custom noble positions with mandates, furniture requirements and such. If you have any ideas how it should be, or what entity tags in raws mean - please do not hide such knowledge.
Wanted to write something else here, but forgot while I was writing the rest of this post

well while i don't have any knowledge in that area, is it necessary for the game to generate mandates for us?  Maybe we can outline what we want done at the beggining of the year/season, and once we work out some kind of better way of recording our influence (hopefully character sheet related)

P.S. teledwarf how well is your comp handling 13x13? 0_o
P.P.S. not that you aren't doing an excellent job teledwarf, but can you please check whether I (and others if they want) get married/have children at each update?  (since i want to record this now and setup my dynasty!), also is the map in the OP? if so I can't find it :S if not can it be please?

[TeleDwarf]

I shall Produce a naming proposal at once!

Splendid!

hmm well in that case I think some changes are in order.  While my character sheet addresses all of your questions... I think (if somewhat indirectly) I can see that the player based ones are unanswered.  If not changes, we at least need additions.  Perhaps it's more about our opinions towards other dwarves? not sure.  I'll make some changes and see how it looks. 
EDIT - done, please review!

Nice. I am sure you will do a reat job tracking all those +influence
The more you guys are involved - the more !!Fun!! it will get.

well while i don't have any knowledge in that area, is it necessary for the game to generate mandates for us? 

Well, not that we actually NEED any in-game support for our political system, but I thought it would be cool to have a few custom noble positions that fit our theme. Housing requirements, mandates and exemptions are just additional flavor options... I am also pretty sure there is a way to alter dwarf preferences (which impact mandates)  through a dfusion script. Just an option, you know, no real need to do it...

Maybe we can outline what we want done at the beggining of the year/season, and once we work out some kind of better way of recording our influence (hopefully character sheet related)

That would be great.
Also, as an option - we can try to work in smaller teams: a noble gets his few loyal retainer peasants (maybe friends or distant relatives) and does his own thing with them (builds a house, crafts something, whatever...). Loads of micromanaging for me, but can potentially be fun for storytelling purposes.

P.S. teledwarf how well is your comp handling 13x13? 0_o

13x13? last I counted it was 11x11 :/. is it growing?
it is pretty stable.

P.P.S. not that you aren't doing an excellent job teledwarf, but can you please check whether I (and others if they want) get married/have children at each update?  (since i want to record this now and setup my dynasty!), also is the map in the OP? if so I can't find it :S if not can it be please?

Here is the future of your dynasty: http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=133733.msg4808272#msg4808272 no wedding yet though.

map link is in the last line of the last spoiler in OP.

[neblime]

Nice. I am sure you will do a reat job tracking all those +influence
The more you guys are involved - the more !!Fun!! it will get.

ok well in that case I think i'll take advantage of the first reply spot i took and put it all there from here on out!
and oh.. 11x11.. still seems pretty large. I can barely handle 5x5
edit - i am so addicted to adding colour to things.  Any dwarfed peoples, let me know if I forgot you in the influence summary

[neblime]

Sorry to post AGAIN, but I posted a whole bunch of influence rules, detailing how you can get/use influence in the second post (See page 1!)
Teledwarf can you please let me know if it all seems ok (also other people if you have concerns/suggestions),
as of now it's just a draft pending teledwarf seal of approval, but if it gets that seal, I intend for it to be the main system we use to play out our political intrigues.

[TeleDwarf]

It looks pretty detailed, convoluted and complex, so I think it represents true democratic nature quite well - a bureaucratic madness. I am sure it will evolve to become even more complex and entangled, so that we will use entire senate sessions to figure out which laws apply and why.
So I think it is a good scheme.

However I dread the ultimate influence and superior powers you assigned to me. It would be nice to tone them down to more earthly levels. After all I am just a temporary(if anyone else will be able to run that embark ) overseer, not a High King of All Dwarves...

I actually think that position of Overseer (Royal Liaison) should be severely limited in terms of political powers. You either do politics or  control dwarves directly.It is more of a technical office then an ultimate moral authority. One day we may chose someone else to run the simulation, and it should not come with pre-packaged "political god" mode.

Let's also see what other dwarves and cats have to say about the proposed system and their place in it.

[neblime]

OOC

It looks pretty detailed, convoluted and complex, so I think it represents true democratic nature quite well - a bureaucratic madness. I am sure it will evolve to become even more complex and entangled, so that we will use entire senate sessions to figure out which laws apply and why.

i've been adding more for like 2 hours hahahaha

However I dread the ultimate influence and superior powers you assigned to me. It would be nice to tone them down to more earthly levels. After all I am just a temporary(if anyone else will be able to run that embark overseer, not a High King of All Dwarves...
I actually think that position of Overseer (Royal Liaison) should be severely limited in terms of political powers. You either do politics or  control dwarves directly.It is more of a technical office then an ultimate moral authority. One day we may chose someone else to run the simulation, and it should not come with pre-packaged "political god" mode.

ok well, succesion aside, I just thought it would be good if you can just step in if we decide something too crazy, I'll leave you as omnipotent for now if thats ok.  Other than that, I think i'll start my political actions right away!

[TeleDwarf]

OOC

ok well, succesion aside, I just thought it would be good if you can just step in if we decide something too crazy, I'll leave you as omnipotent for now if thats ok.

Only as a temporary measure. I do hope we will develop healthy political traditions and will not need a big brother any more. Things like: no cheating, no mechanics abuse, no unfortunate incidents to the political opponents(unless roleplayed), no shortcuts, no intentional shooting ourselves in the foot.

Military service is a binding contract, right? a soldier MUST do what Squad Leader said, and squad leader SHOULD obey what War Leader said, right?

IC:
I would like to volunteer to military.

[neblime]

Neblime Inkydances (+10) Acclaims Urist Mcdwarf (+2)
Agrees: 1
Disagrees: 0


Friends, I'm sure you all remember the terrible trial we went through when those damned goblins arrived.  But do you remember the courage of one single dwarf, in the face of potential injury or death, he remembered he had a job to do!  He was not deterred by the axe swings of those cowards, nor by the regrettable, heroic and lamented death of kib Ilunudib.  He left the rest of you cowering in the hall so he could complete, so he went ahead and created the scintillating cobra in the heat of battle, so that one of us might sleep comfortably!  So perhaps when you lowly peasants see him walking by, you should avert your eyes, or get out of his way! 
Who among you agrees?

OOC
well you have to assign yourself to a squad mr actuallyplayingthegame, and I dont think the council needs to agree to that one!  I think we can do phasing out of royal hand holding IC, as we go.

[TeleDwarf]

well you have to assign yourself to a squad mr actuallyplayingthegame, and I dont think the council needs to agree to that one!  I think we can do phasing out of royal hand holding IC, as we go.

Council does need however to produce some squad leader though. While I volunteered to the military, I neither asked the council for military leadership role, nor willing to utilize my "mr actuallyplayingthegame" god-like role to just usurp one.
And since I have almost all of my free OOC thinking capacity is committed to inventing  how to make a multi-player RPG from a single-player rogue-like strategy, I would really be happy to give someone else an ability to earn the glory of a great general

[kero42]

Just read the early post on influence rules, seems perfectly convoluted for our needs. Good work  . After this post I intend to spend the next few hours (I exaggerate) trying to figure out exactly how to use it.

In order to describe Kerods character, is it allright if I post a list of his priorities and concerns? I could probably also list which dwarves would have his ear regarding council issues.

Now, on to the things I missed earlier:

Neblime Inkydances (+10) Acclaims Urist Mcdwarf (+2)
Agrees: 1
Disagrees: 0


Friends, I'm sure you all remember the terrible trial we went through when those damned goblins arrived.  But do you remember the courage of one single dwarf, in the face of potential injury or death, he remembered he had a job to do!  He was not deterred by the axe swings of those cowards, nor by the regrettable, heroic and lamented death of kib Ilunudib.  He left the rest of you cowering in the hall so he could complete, so he went ahead and created the scintillating cobra in the heat of battle, so that one of us might sleep comfortably!  So perhaps when you lowly peasants see him walking by, you should avert your eyes, or get out of his way! 
Who among you agrees?

Yea, such good work should be rewarded with praise. Though should we also spare a thought for the dead soldier who fought against the evil menace? What is the state of his remains, how has he been memorialised?