We've got about 2 days left to end of day. Mentioning it just to make sure it's clear for anyone wondering/unsure/not keeping track.
I am not ready to commit to voting for anyone right now. My vote on Nerjin was intended to attempt to get a response I was not sure would come without it.
Nerjin, we need to talk some more, but I am
unvoting now. Please don't feel pressured, stressed, hunted... we're just going to chat, and I'm going to chat with others too. My mind is not made up about you, I do have some questions for you and I'll answer your questions too; hopefully I can get a chance to reply to your answers by this time tomorrow and if either of us or anyone else needs to comment or ask about anything we say, with luck that'll have a chance to be addressed as well before day ends.
Superblackcat:
I'm quite mad at myself, for not dropping the vote yesterday against 4mask, when there was obviously no... other cop claims.
But lets take a look at the people who did vote 4mask.
4maskwolf - MyOwnWorstEnemy, Superblackcat, Nerjin, Persus13
Alright. So, each of you give me why you continued to vote him, when it was pretty obvious there was no other Cop claims.
But you didn't notice the lack of a CC?
Superblackcat, would you explain why you voted for 4maskwolf, and why you voted when you did?
I'm not voting 4mask unless someone else outs as cop. If you are the real cop, we win instant if you out. Otherwise, I don't see why Nerjin would bother to vote 4mask.
4mask
Bye.
Those two posts are about 50 minutes apart. I know what happened in the posts made during that time, but not what was going on in your decisions or why your choice changed so much. Explain your reasoning?
Nerjin:
but first allow me to propose an alternate hypothesis: 4mask got mafia and I don't know what he was thinking at all because I got town. Vanilla town to be specific.
This confuses me. Explain what you mean by "4mask got mafia"? Can't be a mafia role, we know he was Town. Can't be an inspection result, he said he got Town from the inspection done on Mastahcheese. I can't think of any other possible meaning.
Your use of 'lets say' in the rest of that post confuses me, especially where you drop it half way through. When you say 'lets say', are you "supposing a theory", or are you using obscure language to speak your actual truth and viewpoint?
I want your truth. I have to ask about your motives or guess. But you know your motives and reasoning.
Assuming you're speaking your truth, one thing you talk about in that post really frightens me, as a player. Maybe as a newbie; I'm too newbie to tell if it's a silly newbie fear or an intelligent and sensible fear - so I'm going to assume that it's a reasonable fear and I'd really like you to explain your viewpoint on this issue:
Now, let's say I'm an IC who prefers teaching people directly and letting them feel things out on their own, stepping in as needed.
...
I think to myself 'I'm not really needed here...
So this has ceased being a BM to me in terms of gameplay and just a very basic game of mafia. I think to myself 'Eh... I'm not really needed. I'll keep an eye out.'
...
I'll try to say stuff where needed but I feel like I'm a redundant factor here. I'm just a player with fancier sig-text.
It really sounds to me like you're viewing yourself
essentially as a non-player, and if you are a player, you're 'not really here', 'it's not your game', 'you don't need to say anything as long as the other players are doing fine'.
In fact, saying 'other players' appears to be a misnomer - you're not at all viewing yourself as 'one of us' - your stance appears to be more that of an umpire or a teacher - homework, tests, that stuff's for the kids; teachers are just in the room, ignore me kids, you play your game and keep doing good, I'll correct you when you mess up.
That. Is. Forgive me Nerjin, but that is awful, if that's your perspective. You
are one of us. Be you Town or Scum you are one of the six living players in this game, a game that actually may reach Mylo tomorrow if we cannot figure out who to lynch today. No matter how much experience any of us has or lacks, no matter how well or poorly each of us is playing - you are in the game and you are a player here.
We need your interaction with us, we need it from day 1; failing that we need it from now on to the end of the game or your death, whichever comes first. We
need you, like we needed Mastahcheese while he lived; like we needed Pufferfish-became-4maskwolf while he lived, like we need Persus and Sinlessmoon now, we need every single one of us and
you very much are one of us Nerjin![/i]. And the fewer players we have, the more and more we need every single one that remains.
Of course, if you're Scum, we need you in a different way than we need you if you are Town, but the need is no less.
What is wrong with my reasoning? Why do you say you are not needed? Why do you feel you are redundant, especially today when there are only 6 of us able to speak, only 5 with any possible true interest in catching Scum?
I'll agree if you believe we don't need you to lead; I'll agree if you don't believe we need you to explain how to play. But you
are one of us; as a player you are the equal and partner of every one of us, even if you are Scum - you are a living player in this game which cannot be played without communication and interaction!
come on imp, you're better than this baseless attack.
I'd say Imp due to her flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon. I don't want to say she's scum though because I honestly think she's better than that.
Alright, let's reply to this in full now since I have basically unlimited time. Since you are Imp and are, therefore, a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player I have only this to say: I'm very disappointed in what you're doing here.
Imp is a player who, though almost needlessly verbose, is quite competent despite her relative newness. Thus I'm holding her to a higher standard. This attack and vote [obviously a pressure vote] had absolutely ZERO evidence behind it other than 'This sounds like a plausible situation people might jump at if I phrase it properly.'
A pure attack of opportunity that she probably developed within ten minutes of posting it. It DOES sound like something that might happen. EXCEPT that it would be a GROSS violation of my IC duties. Despite my other shortcomings I follow the spirit of ICing very seriously. I am here to teach. I have done just that.
Let me be totally frank with you Imp your theory is trash as is your reason for voting me. I'm curious about something: Why did you put it forward and vote me on absolutely NO evidence?
You really confused me here. You flip between praise of me, "a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player" and belittling "come on imp, you're better than this baseless attack." You describe what I posted as a "flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon" but also as "obviously a pressure vote".
Which do you mean, especially about the 'theory' I posted? Are 'obvious pressure votes' also 'flailing accusational attempt to start a bandwagon' and also 'pure attacks of opportunity?'
You make a bunch of statements, some contradictory, about what I said - and you deny the theory; earlier you even posted a counter 'theory' that I don't understand and which I've asked you to explain near the beginning of this post.
Your full reply... at least you say it's your full reply -
Alright, let's reply to this in full now since I have basically unlimited time.
- it also does not actually point out any evidence to the contrary, not even a single 'blatantly obvious' reason why it is clearly untrue, or any subtler reasons which undermine it and suggest it is not likely to be true. It doesn't have to - I wanted your response to it and to the other, earlier questions, no matter what that response was. However, I am concerned about this: your response to the challenge is based upon things you say about my character and things you say to describe me, both positively and negatively - and the positive ones are tuned towards attack too, aren't they? "Imp is a player who, though almost needlessly verbose, is quite competent despite her relative newness. Thus I'm holding her to a higher standard" and "Since you are Imp and are, therefore, a player I greatly respect as a pretty competent player I have only this to say: I'm very disappointed in what you're doing here" - ahh, that's use of praise to more broadly aim your response as an attack at me, right? You are using
ad hominem on purpose? Been a long time since my one logic class in college, which I think spent a single paragraph on that concept; but that's been brought up in a few other games recently.
So you made a bunch of statements about my 'theory' and about me, and you asked me really only one thing about what I said.
I'm curious about something: Why did you put it forward and vote me on absolutely NO evidence?
In short, it's because my previous three attempts to directly communicate with you seemed to have utterly failed, I'd been trying for just over a week at the point I posted that 'theory' to get interaction with you, and you'd found time to interact when you wanted to and even used a shorten instead of interacting with me or anyone besides 4maskwolf after he claimed... apparently my and others' questions meant so little to you at the time that you forgot them, repeatedly?
As for 'ignoring' questions I kept forgetting to actually answer them.
I was getting desperate because I don't know your alignment and you really, really really were not talking to me or anyone except for the guy who said 'I'm a cop' - and you basically said 'die, liar!' to him, then went back to IC stuff intermixed with silence.
In long, see
this post. Persus13 asks me essentially the same question, I explain my reasons very clearly there, but I'm perfectly happy to explain further or explore my reasoning and concerns with you or anyone who wishes. Interaction and understanding motivation and reasoning are vital for determining alignment. At this point Nerjin, I'd be happy to interact with you about just about anything, any tone, any topic; some are more important than others but I desperately need to read your words and understand you better. Time's getting really tight, both in the Day and in the game.
I'm exhausted guys. My morning's unlikely to give me much time, maybe none, and Nerjin's not the only person I need to talk with.
Sinlessmoon Do you understand what Lylo and Mylo are? Do you understand what a Town lurker who doesn't vote or really isn't involved in the game means at that stage of the game? And what a similar Scum lurker means at that point? I -really- had that driven home to me in the final Day of BM44. Wow was that rough, intense, and horrid. And unwinnable for Town. You understand that, right? I never want to go through that again. I'm currently wishing we had voted you out D2, losing your D3 contribution to the game would have cost us nothing at all - especially if you are Scum but hey, look at your posts so far - we'd have lost nothing if you are Town either. I warn you now, if I am not quite sure who the Scum is by day end, you will have my vote unless that might create a tie. I am very unwilling to risk walking into Mylo with a player like yourself. You have 2 days to fix it, and I really hope you do.
I've got more questions to answer and more to ask, but I'm just too tired. More as soon as I can, probably tomorrow evening
Sooner if at all possible.
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Topic: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors | Renascence | Town Win (Read 119980 times)