Sinlessmoon:
Sinlessmoon Exams already? Ouch. For me the semester barely has started. How much time do you believe you'll have for this game; do you intend to replace or will you be able to interact with us fairly frequently?
Yeah, my semester is just ending for me. I don't think I'll replace, but I definitely won't have time for large posts. I will however come and check in on things frequently.
That's great! Long posts aren't necessary, especially if short is your style anyway. Effective action towards a win for your side is what matters, not how long or short you post.
Sinlessmoon:
I haven't heard much from you recently. What are your thoughts on Makeinu's flip? Who do you think is Makeinu's buddy? You planning on going on he offensive at all this game?
Yeah, I haven't had much time recently, what with exams coming up. Gotta crack down on some assignments!
As for that, I thought Makeinu would be scum; just one of those things that nags at the back of your head, and he seemed very eager to draw suspicion onto other players. I'm thinking I might go on the offensive soon, consider casting my vote on some suspicious people.
How sure were you about your thought that makeinu would be scum? You didn't vote D1, or really post much of anything; you've given a reason for not posting, and a tentative reason for not voting (though you didn't label it as such):
So far, the two players on my watch list are Makeinu, and Superblackcat. Both seem equally suspicious in the way they seem to be incredibly pro-lynch.
As god damn well they should be! Lynching is, once again, TOWN’S ONLY POWER IN THIS GAME! Without a lynch we lose while we let mafia pick us off one by one.
I'm going to go ahead and partially agree with this. Yes; lynching is the only power that the town have, but they shouldn't just throw it around, Its like waving a loaded gun and hoping that when you shoot its the not the imposter that is trying to convince you that they are the real person.
You saw that Makeinu the person that was so pro-lynch turned out to be mafia, the problem with the Town's only weapon... It can be easily used against them.
How sure do you want to feel about someone before you vote for their lynch? How can you become that sure or more, before a day ends?
4maskwolf:
My only retort to that is that Makeinu was rather focused on saving his own hide from being skinned (which he failed at), so he was less likely to notice all of the lurkers. Also, if he was already going down, why would he draw attention to a fellow Mafioso in such a blatant way?
Could you please quote what you read that made you think that makeinu was focused on saving his own hide? I've reread his posts again, and I don't see that at all. Even his final post before the lynch -
Exactly. As strange as my behaviour has been this game, it's all been about teaching. Believe it or not.
That sounds purposeful, and focused, at least in claim, on teaching. Which, reading his posts before that one, his posts all game - teaching is what I see. Once he starts to gain votes, he stops making any cases on anyone, stops defending himself, and focuses even more completely in trying to teach. I'm not sure if or how he drew attention to his Scumbuddy - I don't see it - but I also don't see the focus on saving his own hide. I really want to hear what you see.
Superblackcat:
Imp, On the lack of follow-ups, is that I rarely have the time to take notes, and I usually don't exactly remember what I say. In fact, thanks for reminding me 
.
I wasn't really asking him a question. I was just... I dunno, joking around? Telling him that I don't actually just jump in and post 4 words on a regular basis, and this was trying to get a reaction?
The way Persus said it, sounded like. "Active people are pretty much comfirmed town IMO, I'm active btw. Lets lynch these lurkers." I understand his reasoning, but that seems to be trying to not get found out himself.
That makes sense, thank you.
Also, I really don't think that both ICs would be... scum. Just from the standpoint of a BM game, even given that Tiruin rolled for it, I would think she would reroll, because none of the new player gets as much help/ scum experience. And there is no point for the scum IC really. But that's all meta gaming.
I would like Nerjin to answer it. Please and thank you.
It's happened before. Here's the link, in the history of games here it's happened once before:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108236.msg3228150#msg3228150The IC who were both Scum played a very strong game; Scum won very handily, which commonly happens even when both IC are Town.
Would Tiruin reroll if she got that result for Scum? She's not supposed to.
Speaking of old games, the best Town win game was not a 'true BM', it had a lot of experienced players in it but was the normal BM set up. It was a very short game, Scum lynched D1 and D2, though they did suffer a Town loss to N1 kill. If we do lynch Scum today, I think we're getting into the archives, because that's a Town win that would trump that 'perfect' game.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=79927.0Also, 4maskwolf: That's were you come in. Persus will be especially keeping an eye on you two, since you two replaced in. If you guys slip up! Ho ho ho, Merry Christmas, and may that ditch be comfortable!
Hey now, I hope you at least try to tell if a mistake is a Town mistake or a Scum mistake. Don't forget that others have put that effort into you once upon the time. (that's a reference to BM43, for those who forgot or were not there. I was about 65% sure Cat was Scum there by the end of D1, because of a rather spectacular misunderstanding and a few other coincidences, combined with his playstyle... we discussed until I finally became convinced Cat was Town. He was too - but boy did he 'slip up'.)
mastahcheese:
I'm fairly certain. I'll go ahead and give my reasons for them.
Sort of put my whole reads in that, but I doubt you'll mind.
Not at all. The better I understand how you think the more comfortable I feel about my ability to understand your intentions and honesty. You are my second 'Top Town' pick, and second only because I believe I've got a very good read of Superblackcat.
I do understand ruling people out - I don't have very much to say to those I view as highly likely to be Town, those whose play and logic makes great sense to me and who is reacting very reasonably. I watch that person and I'm done, as long as their behavior keeps making sense to me. That's me - and I haven't seen specifically Persus, the only one of you three I actually have played with before, do this before. In fact, I haven't seen anyone else but myself do this before. But all three of you appear very comfortable with it this time, so I'd like each of you to explain why you feel comfortable that you're done with each other.
I'm not sure if it's just in the way that you word this, but I'm having a lot of trouble reading and interpreting this.
Overall, it's hard for me to read through your posts because you're very wordy with your responses.
This isn't a bad thing, it just takes me a re-read or two.
Rewording it, longer, hopefully more clear with missing details included:
When I think someone is probably Town, because of how that person is scumhunting and the reasoning I see them use, the actions I see them take - when everything about their play makes sense to me - I have not had much to say directly to that person. In my first BM, that got me rather heavily questioned, because I was intently debating everyone active (and inactive, trying different styles of persuasion and provokation) pretty extensively - except for the one player who did not look Scummy to me at all. What that player said made sense, the Scumhunting he was doing, though not in my words, was more or less exactly the same concerns I saw in others' posts, and really, that player was a strong Town choice for me. I can understand how you three (Superblackcat, Persus13, mastahcheese) can become completely comfortable with each other and view each other as Town, because it happened to me in that game with another Town player, and pretty early in the game. But I thought that was a rare thing, I've not seen it before other than in my own playing, and I have not seen it happen mutually between three players before. In fact Persus13 especially has seemed exceptionally suspicious of others and rather slow to decide if he thought someone was more likely Town or Scum than unknown, at least that was my impression from our Supernatural game.
4maskwolf:
I was defending myself
That I believe. You've been focused on being a cop, or presenting yourself as a cop, from your first post in this game.
Just remember, I will be watching all of you.
My lack of a greeting
And Imp, after reading your responses to me I realized that I had misinterpreted your statement. Yes, it was a greeting. The reason I had not posted MORE of a greeting was the fact that my computer's hard drive failed.
I think I believe you more the first time, when you said you 'lacked a greeting'. Your first post here was the start of a role claim.
You walked into this game with 2 votes on you, a game with only 3 active players, and around 4 weekdays to day end, with 2 extends open for use and only needing 2 players to agree to extend with you to get an extension. Additionally, you have claimed
My previous experience on these forums is lacking, but I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.
So now I'd like you to explain how you respond to pressure, in general. Are you likely to break or make snap choices under mid to moderate pressure?
Please rank these three choices in order of more/less satisfying to you:
1
To be alive at the end of the game in which your side has won2
To have helped your side achieve a win, regardless of if you are alive at the end of the game or not3
To be alive at the end of the game, regardless of if your side has won or not.
Did you walk into this game intending to claim the role of Cop from your very first post?
I notice now, where I missed it before - your claim here:
My previous experience on these forums is lacking, but I've played mafia in person quite often, under various guises.
Perhaps I am trying to overanalyze, but it's my first game.
That's more defensiveness, right? You're playing both 'experienced and inexperienced' at the same time. Why?
While I have ruled out MastahCheese as a suspect, I don't follow how you managed to rule out the others and decide to pin the blame on lurkers. Yes, lurking is a minor scumtell: however, there were, as you said, four lurkers, and only one mafioso. It isn't possible that all of the lurkers were mafia, so how did you select the individual ones to single out and eliminate?
You didn't ask me this question, but no one else has answered you, so I will, in general:
You talk to them, ask them questions, follow those questions up, interact, observe, consider, and in the end, guess based on the probability you believe you see.
There's only two groups of players who don't have to guess - the Scum, who know almost everything, and if we have one, the Cop, who knows only about who has been inspected so far.
If you want specifics from the three I asked my question of, you'd better follow up because it looks like your question has been missed, if you care about that. Do you?
And again, about that 'Mafia experience' answer of yours - this is a very basic question. You expected this type of answer, which you already know, yes or no?
Imp: if you had to pick one person who you believed was scum, right now, who would you choose?
Ouch. I want answers before I lynch if that's possible to get. And there's people I haven't even pressed yet because I want to press others first. The answers I get are very likely to change how I vote.
Because I don't have your answers yet, 4maskwolf, and because you have claimed cop, if I was kinged and had to lynch someone before anyone could post again, at this second I'd lynch Sinlessmoon, and I'd be stressing heavily over it. I am by no means sure of him, but at -this- second he either is my Top Scumpick or is tied for that rank, it's very close and I'm not done thinking.
Before your cop claim it would have been you, and I would barely be more comfortable with that choice. I want answers if I can get them, I want to feel sure and make sure. People mess up - people freak out, people react badly to pressure; there's coincidences and misunderstandings. Since I cannot inspect someone, I talk to them. Nicely, meanly, deeply, obliquely; whatever I can figure out that might help me get a clear enough understanding of their motives, intention, and reasons. I also want to know their honesty, but I've seen Town lie before under enough stress - I've known Town players who have preferred to live than preferred to help Scumhunt. In fact - in Supernatural 6, our very own Nerjin was one of those - the D1 lynch, he chose to spend his final hours searching for any way to survive, and spurnned my attempts to discuss Scumhunting with him, any final tries to help his team win if he actually was Town - and he actually was Town. But if it wasn't going to immediately get him out of the lynch; he didn't care and wasn't going to put any effort into anything. He's changed his play greatly since then - his current playstyle has been used every game since that I've seen.
How were you defending yourself from me when I haven't actually attacked you yet? I had a hold-over vote on you that I simply kept due to a lack of new evidence that would make me unvote. And as I said earlier, it didn't even seem like MOWE was attacking at all. Yet you say you are defending yourself. From what?
Alright then, MastahCheese. As you say. Seeing as how I appear to be on the lynching block, go May as well share what I know.
I am the cop.
Wait a second. "As mastahcheese says"? Excuse you, but mastercheese said that you were not being attacked, that the votes on you were hold overs, and that at least to his perspective, MOWE wasn't attacking you either. And you respond with this and a role claim?
You walked into this game eager to roleclaim. You definately didn't think of it spur of the minute, it's been on your mind since before your first post, and it's colored almost every post you've made in this game.... maybe every one, only I can't spot them all. I can see plenty.
What that doesn't say is 'why are you so defensive, why are you so eager to role claim, why do you feel so incredibly threatened'. It doesn't say one word about if your role claim is true - and if you're doing this role claim to save your life from the lynch and it is a true claim - you are setting yourself up to be a very likely nightkill target - perhaps defended by the Jailkeeper, if we have one.
So if you're roleclaiming to save your life, you're also throwing it away.
But if you're Scum and fakeclaiming (hah, the remaining scum is a Rolecop.... if you're Scum it's not even a fakeclaim, and your PM would have put the word cop right in front of your eyes, like we can all see in the OP list of roles) then you can play as if Town all game, 'protected' by the unknown Jailkeeper (maybe for real, maybe just pretending there is one - unless we all claim Jailkeeper or not Jailkeeper, or the Jailkeeper dies - we don't know if we even have one) and not using your night kill, or even using it - after all, it's reasonable that 'the Scum might pick another target, knowing you're probably gaurded' and you could use the kill quite safely, without blowing your cover.
I don't know what's true. You do. And you can help me and us understand that truth too, by really explaining yourself, your motivations, your reasoning - in enough detail that we can understand your choices as being reasonable ones that are logically directed towards achieving the goal you claim they are focused towards. I don't want to lynch any Town, cop or not. If you're Town, just be honest, very very honest, even if you made some bad choices. If I can recognize your Townness and feel it is true, I assure you -I- will not be voting for you.
My logic in claiming was thus:
There are two main scenarios that could be the case: I am cop, or I'm running a really gutsy mafia ploy.
Let us examine these two scenarios: the first is that I am cop. One possible conclusion is that I get lynched anyway, flipping town. This confirms Mastahcheese as innocent, reducing the pool of possible mafiosos. The second scenario is where I don't get lynched. I would almost certainly be night killed, as the jailkeepeer wouldn't use his ability on me because it would prevent me from using my own ability. The third option, the counter-claim, leads to a town victory. Either I get lynched, which is an obvious scum tell on the other claimant, or they get lynched, and game over.
The next scenario is where I am mafia. In the case of a lynch, game over, everyone goes home, town victory. In the case of someone else being lynched, the game goes, at best for me, as follows: I night-kill someone, leaving five town (one got lynched) and me. The next day, I claim to have found the culprit, and they lynch him. Another night kill, leaving town with a three to one majority and an obvious scum. Town victory. The same goes for the counter-claim, except it is even quicker.
Your logic is flawed. Especially in 'The next scenario'. Wow, especially in the next scenario.
You propose as your best plan to claim that you found 'the culprit'; you suggest that D3 you will say a Townie is a Scum, which you say will get them lynched D3 and you lynched D4, providing a certain Town win.
But wait - even a real cop only might inspect the actual Scum - why would you 'at best' claim to have successfully found Scum and have only a plan that gets you dead?
Isn't it
far better to claim to have inspected any person and found them to be Town, or even claim to have inspected the night kill target (after all, you don't know who the Scum would pick to kill, so why give Town any new information at all - why wouldn't you inspect that person?)
I can see you as Scum carrying that lie, with or without night kills, all the way to lylo and a Scum win.
In fact, you even suggest that our Jailkeeper wouldn't protect you, in your 'first scenario', since that would block your inspection. Leaving you free to choose who to kill, or not to kill as you most saw fit.
I really hope you can help me understand your reasoning, especially for how and why you didn't see a possible 'Scum-win' way to use your Claim to achieve a Scum win,
if you are Scum and not the Cop as you claim. I really hope you can help me understand how your reasoning is Town reasoning and not Scum strategy.
In fact, having thought this through more and understanding more clearly, when you asked me:
Imp: if you had to pick one person who you believed was scum, right now, who would you choose?
Right now, you. Even with your claim, because of the holes in your logic and apparent dishonesty in the result of what would happen 'at best for you' if you were Scum using this ploy.
Tiruin: Does Nerjin need a prod? Also, would you permit both IC to have Scum roles in your BM game?
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Topic: Beginner's Mafia XLIV: The Court of Colors | Renascence | Town Win (Read 119650 times)