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[Jim Groovester]

I'm going to be out and won't be able to make a post before the deadline.

Vote Persus13, he is bandwagoning scum.

[RangerCado]

Makeinu: How do we know you aren’t lying through your teeth about these PMs? Do we have any reason to trust your claims more than Toony’s and Tiruin’s? Can you tell us who they guarded last night, if at all? And yes, your claiming of 2 other guards talking to you via PM has created WIFOM.

You don't. It comes down to believability and trust.

I'm awaiting a PM response before I decide what else to do, including answering your questions.

Also, nothing on Caz at all? You've all of D1 to base a read on, so what's your take there?

Null read on Caz. I didn't get much information from him and was hoping to do so today until he was abducted/harvested/combat camoed.

Imp:

Rangercado is asking about the possibility of you lying about them - she's probably not one of them.

Although I have wondered what it would be like to be a girl at times, and usually play female characters in games, I am in fact male.

Jim: So your asking us to band wagon on someone for band wagonning? ...Nah, my vote stays on you.

[Jim Groovester]

A better vote than voting a guy because he was A BIG FAT JERK.

Which isn't even a unique of me to this game.

Grow a backbone.

[RangerCado]

Only part of my vote, and why don't you grow a heart then too? (And I now am going to ignore any and all insults from Jim.)

[Toaster]

Jim:  Don't be a jerk, jerk.

Jim is right about voting Persus, though.  His vote record (as I went over) is poor.  It doesn't help that he jumps right on Imp after Toony's claim then jumps to Jim for... reasons I really can't pick out.


Persus:  What exactly is your case on Jim?

[Jim Groovester]

Getting a buffer against vote shenanigans wouldn't be a bad idea either.

[makeinu]

PFP because I probably won't be back online before the day ends.

No, flavor counter-claims in this case manifestly do not tell a damn thing.

Hypothetical:

ToonyMan posts:

flavor text chocolate banana

Imp counter-posts:

hang ToonyMan, flavor text bacon!

Or:

agree flavor text chocolate banana

And what do we know in the end? Nothing more, because it then comes down to "I trust one, or the other, or both, or neither."

So how is that any different from my claims?

Oh, wait, I can at least quote the PMs with other players if I choose. You can't quote Meph's PM.  So yours is perfectly unverifiable. And ultimately so is mine, except that I can leave in the original "feel" of the message I received, if I so chose, to reveal the player at the other end without naming them.

Which I won't do, because I promised I wouldn't.

I give up. I'm right, I'm wrong, doesn't matter anymore. I believe what I believe based on the data I have and logical analysis of it. And now I'm right back to defending myself.


Toaster: Persus' case against Jim is "he feels scummy". Jim's case against Persus is, to me, equally thin. Frankly, they're acting like a damn married couple. And Persus is not acting like he was in Sprint, the only place I have to compare his behavior against, where he was scum.

Ironically, I believe they're both Town.


Role claim:

I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.

After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.

I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?

I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.

Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.

So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.

Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.

Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

[Superblackcat]

-SuperBlackCat: Slight scum read. I haven’t seen much come from him that is constructive yet, and is now using meta to justify his bandwagoning that he is completely aware of.

RangerCado. Where did I use meta to justify my bandwagoning? I used meta for 2 purposes thus far. The first in an attack against Persus, pointed his votes out in his two games he's played, one as scum, one as town. The votes were surprisingly differently styled... And He seems to be styling his votes after scum right now.

Secondly to talk about "Players who appear too towny/doesn't have any enemies". This would be Squill, or Persus. As you could see in Sprint. No one said anything bad about Persus... except for Tiruin, his own partner... So?/

[Persus13]

Tiruin: What's your case against me? Why do you think I am scum?

TheDarkStar was acting pretty scummy, I think anyone would agree with that. So, that's a WIFOM argument, but let's take it on anyway. Here's the sequence of events changing the vote board D1:

I was going to argue with this, but then I remembered that RangerCado was attacking DarkStar for part of D1. However, I know if I was Imp and scum, I just would have continued voting Toaster.

Persus:

Anyways, I'm quite curious as to why you manage to jump onto bandwagons that are started... every single time.

You mean besides me voting Max D1, and Imp D2, and returning to Imp when new information surfaced D2 and then voting Jim, which was a vote only one other person was doing?

Also, just pulling in METAs here... During Sprint, d1, every single vote, save the 1st one, was jumping on a bandwagon. You were the 2nd person on a person every single time.

You're right that the first vote of mine was someone no one else had voted (Tiruin), and the first vote of mine that mattered was on someone else who wasn't being voted (elephant parade), but In that game I led the Pufferfish lynch before switching to vote Tiruin (who no one else was voting), then I went back on the Pufferfish lynch. Your meta is wrong. In fact, I only bandwagoned once in that game, and that was on someone I had stated that I believed to be scum multiple times.

In BMXLIII: You jumped in a vote on RPG, He was not yet voted, jumped on bandwagon kleril, but jumped off much sooner than other, and onto Darvi, who was also not yet voted... Jumped back to kleril,

That also wasn't bandwagoning. I actually was voting Kleril for reasons other than Imp that game.

It seems to me, in the games in which he is not scum, he is much more likely to jump off band wagons, and form his own pressures.

That's actually not true. I do that regardless of whether or not. And hopping of my vote to vote lurkers for inactivity midday is a null tell, as it's part of my playstyle and something I do regardless of whether I'm town or not.

Also, his reason towards Jim is... That Jim is voting Persus himself. And then... He goes back and takes some Jim posts, that he doesn't like I guess? He asks questions, argues against those posts... and votes Jim himself. Not a very convincing reasoning at all.

I've stated that I've considered Jim scummy because he was acting differently from D2 than from D1 since early D2. He's also being hypocritical slightly for voting for bandwagoning when that's what he's doing himself. Your comments on my taking posts of Jim from D2 is a baseless accusation that seems meant to make me seem very scummy. I take issue with that. I've actually had a folder in my bookmarks of the posts I mentioned to question Jim on when I finally got around to pressing him.

His reason towards Sin was complete bullshit and bandwagon, I will not bother to summarize it.

This is not only rude, it's not scumhunting. YOu simply state that my reasons are stupid without bothering to mention what they are.

His reason towards Imp: Psychic Warden claim. Uhhh... I'd call it bandwagoning. It hard to attack the Persus + Persus has no reason other than the Toony's reason. If this isn't bandwagoning... what is?

Yes, how dare I vote Imp when someone reveals information that means she might be scum and when I already had voted Imp before because I thought she was scummy. That's means I must be scum.

But seriously, I have stated multiple times over Day 2 that I consider Imp scummy. I even listed her as my top 3 scumpicks when you asked me about them. If someone roleclaims against someone else, why shouldn't I vote Imp?

Caz is Abducted.
Imp is Guarded.
Imp is role-blocked by a Psychic Warden.
Caz is also targeted for night kill.

Imp can't have been targeted for night kill if Tiruin is telling the truth, because Tiruin would be dead otherwise. And nothing Imp said yesterday gives me reason to believe the dopps would have viewed her as a threat. Neither did Caz, but at least if he (she? I can't remember, I'm sorry) had been the target, I assume the Abduction would stop that from happening.

You're leaving out a possibility. Caz and Imp could have been NK targets. They could also have been the chosen scum to carry out the kills.

I'd like to throw something out ot everyone.

Yeah, just throw it out there like I didn't already.

Yeah, but I used a quote.

Okay, thanks, I'll keep that in mind for when I'm scum.

I like your subtle town claim.

That was subtle?

Hey Jim, since I've decided against Imp for the present, and Caz isn't here, it's your turn to be questioned.

Oh, nice. I'm sure this has nothing to do with my recent vote on you.

[sarcasm]Yes, because it's not like I've been saying that you seem scummy since almost the beginning of D2.[/sarcasm] Oh, wait, I have.

So what is the proper response? Does this instantly mean that someone is scum if they refuse to be rattled?

The proper town response is to be unfazed. Panicky people are scummy, and panicky people because of dumb insinuation are also scummy.

What's your point with bringing this up?

So why is being panicky a scumtell? Panicky people can be town or scum. And no one can tell how serious your dumb accusation is. How successful has this been? It hasn't been successful from what I've seen of it.

If you had said that you weren't a dopp to begin with without trying to explain it too much I probably would've looked elsewhere.

Isn't claiming that your town supposed to be a bad thing?

It's more about denying being a dopp than claiming town when challenged with dumb insinuation.

Okay, it's just I was remembering Makeinu being attacked for claiming town.

What's your problem with people not voting at the beginning of days?

My problem is with people not voting suspects.

But when I vote my suspects it's bandwagoning even though I've stated my suspects before others voted them?

I believe Imp was referring to this:

You're probably right.

Why are you bringing it up, though?

Because you never answered her questions, or acknowledged that you didn't and explain why.

Your summary isn't working. I don't understand it.

Okay.

Is there a point here?

I was trying to understand if there was a point to the summary and the post it was trying to summarize and failed.

How is this the correct response? I would fail to see how this helps you discover scum.

It only helps if they give the incorrect response, which happens occasionally.

This makes it worthwhile to try.

Okay, as long as the correct response doesn't automatically mean they're town.

Finally, you've seen me as scum since you watched the BM Sprint game. Did you think I was scum, and did I ever bandwagon someone?

Ehhhh, not really. I didn't pay much attention, or any, to the game and I didn't go back once the game was over and take down notes on people's meta.

Than what is my meta?

So what happened to your case on RangerCado anyway? You said you were leaning scum on him and then stopped talking about him. Was it because no one else voted him?

I ran out of things to press him over. He's been doing a not terrible job of being active and questioning people since then.

Ah okay, than who are your other suspects. You suspected Ranger and then dropped him for me. Who else is your suspect?

You jumped back to Imp when ToonyMan claimed, and then you had a reversal of your opinion as soon as there were people willing to argue against the idea of Imp being scum. You are jumping on votes of most convenience, and if that isn't bandwagoning then I don't know what is.

So what your saying is don't vote suspects when other people say they have information. That sounds like an idea. I would hardly call any person I've voted that isn't Sinlessmoon a vote of convenience.

State your case on me. I have no idea what you're voting me for and I have no idea what feasible purpose you have for all those posts you brought up.

Your D2 play has seemed to me very different from your D1 play. You were pursuing a case on RangerCado, but that disappeared into thin air, and then you started attacking me after others grew suspicious of me. That seems hypocritical to me.

I'll hopefully post more later if I have time.

[ToonyMan]

Sorry I was a bit sidetracked today.  I do have a more detailed flavor post since Meph gives me everything Sinless received.

In my own words:

I sit at a table, a large blue candle in front of me and a bronze chain in my hands.  I read from the Great Book on Psychic Wardening and incant the Ritual of Subdual on Imp.  Slowly, I can feel chains unwrap from myself and ensnare Imp.  The chains tighten and I can feel her spirit fighting back, but it's no use and she is trapped, the Ritual draining her strength.  She won't be doing anything tonight.  My book actually worked, yay!

[ToonyMan]

Role claim:
I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.
After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.
I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?
I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.
Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.
So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.
Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.
Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.
Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.
Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

Wait what, you PM'd other players?  Is that allowed??

[RangerCado]

Role claim:
I'm a Town Detective. Last night, I found a Harvester with Mind Stealer power. They had targeted Caz. When I approached them, after some wrangling, I got this out of them (paraphrased):

Caz isn't a dopp. He was actually a town Heroic Guard.
After TheDarkStar was lynched and flipped dopp, I wagered that town would be a better bet to side with.
I targeted Caz because I thought he might've been some kind of nasty third party. I did it partly because I was really curious and wanted to know, partly to disable him, and partly because it would have been more interesting than abducting somebody I thought was town so that I didn't end up dead during the night with a wincon I didn't really want to have.

Clarification was asked about that last bit, and answered to the effect that it was more fun to try and find a crazy third party role, even though it meant insta-lose in the event they were NK'd last night. The easy, safe, choice was find a strong Town tell and abduct them. Fun was chosen, and then it turned out, wow, crazy Town role, who saw THAT coming, amirite?
I agreed to work with them, and not out them, so long as they continued to help the Town. So far, all indications are that they are doing just that.
Another I PM'd with claimed Observant Guard, Town presumed, guarded the player I targeted as Detective, and their target wasn't targeted for a kill in the night.
So, Caz, Town Heroic Guard claimed, guarded no one, because Mind Stealer abduction.
Unnamed Mind Stealer claiming to want to side Town because they're likelier to win that way, because of TheDarkStar's role flip.
Tiruin, Heroic Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded Imp, who was also role-blocked. No kill attempt.
Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.
Just in case I don't see you all in the morning, it's been fun.

Wait what, you PM'd other players?  Is that allowed??

It is as has been confirmed twice now by Meph, and Player's quoting the OP post.

[Persus13]

Persus' reason against Sin was... He is lurking=deadweight... Now, if you will look back to Jim's response to that. "If you vote someone for lurking, but not actually for them being scummy, you are not scum hunting" or something along those lines.

So you're either parroting Jim's argument or you're saying I'm copying my reasons from Jim. The former is scummy, and the latter is not true.

Imp has answered one of my questions

Persus13, am I missing other questions still?

I'd prefer a response to your question about me being fixated on you. I also wanted examples of Toaster not answering a question.

Persus:  What exactly is your case on Jim?

Read my posts about it. Also, you're wrong about me. I'm much more devious when I'm scum.

Getting a buffer against vote shenanigans wouldn't be a bad idea either.

Because you want to make sure you mislynch.

[Persus13]

Since it looks like I'm going to be lynched, I might as well post some things.

First of, I'm going to role claim. I am this guy:

Third, unnamed, Observant Guard claim, Town presumed but not claimed, guarded the Mind Stealer. No kill attempt.

Makeinu's contacted me with a PM early D2, and we discussed our suspicions of people because at the time our scum lists looked very similar. We also exchanged Night action information.

My current reads on people:
RangerCado-Null, leaning town. Seems to be doing a decent job, but not heavily involved.
Jim Groovestar-possible scum, for multiple reasons, almost all I've stated, including different D2 play, and hypocrisy.
Toaster: Has seemed town so far, although didn't vote Darkstar.
SBC- Has seemed majorly scummy to me since his criticisms of me have either been based on wrong meta or have essentially parroted what Jim has argued. Max seemed scummy to me as well.
Caz-possible scum. Something happened to Dopp Nightkill, and was acting scummy D1.
Tiruin-Has a tendency to vote scum when scum. She's voting me right now, so town? But she also has failed to explain why she thinks I'm scum and why she isn't paying attention to me at all.
Toonyman-Null.
Makeinu-Could easily be scum, Seems convinced Caz is town by the word of his abductor, which I think is too flimsy.
Imp-Seemed like her play was different this game. Was blocked last night which could explain the lack of NK.

My advice for tomorrow. Caz, SBC and Jim are all people I think are good scum candidates. my top choice at the moment however is SBC or Caz. If Caz is scum, I'm pretty sure Jim will be scum then.

Oh, and one last tidbit of information:
Last Night I protected Jim. He's the Mind Stealer.

I'd like responses to my questions even though I'm about to die, too please.

Goodbye guys.

[Imp]

I have scanned the thread.  I have questions about makeinu's post, especially about how/why makeinu sent a PM to the observant guard who guarded the harvester.  Since no kill attempt appears to have happened, and that's what observant guards see, right?  Not detective investigations, and a detective wouldn't notice the guard, I assume when inspecting the target being guarded.  In S players being guarded were informed they were being guarded by a flavor PM of their interaction, even without an attack.  I don't know if that happens in P too.  I was not informed about being guarded, however being unconscious may have prevented me from meeting my guard, if I was guarded.  I have other questions but no time to type them.

For my PM, I felt chains wrapping around me, I struggled but that seemed to bind me more completely.  Rapidly I lost the ability to move and collapsed to the floor.  I felt my energy drain and everything went dark.  I woke with a terrible headache.  Unamusingly IRL I was quite sick and had a migraine at the start of D2 play, life should not imitate art like this.

I do believe Toonyman is probably telling the truth about being Warden and targeting me, especially with makinu's claim to have identified the harvester who abducted and identified Caz.  This is really confusing and I don't have time to properly read it yet, that'll happen sometime before D3.  I still need a replacement but I'll try to be active until that can happen.

Persus13's play looks very similar to me to how it did in S6, where he was Town.  It bothers me that Persus tends to be what I think of as a 'bouncing ball', he changes his vote pretty freely and frequently seems to react to pressure about how he is using his vote.

It's Scummy, but it's also Persus, even when he's Town.  Jim and Toaster also played in S6.  Neither really focused on Persus13's 'bouncing ball' voting then, though Jim did persistently vote Persus and not scumhunt him, just 'rest his vote' on Persus until he shifted it to someone else who he identified as Scummy.  That bugged me too, and I talked to Jim about it, but the questions were not answered.  Jim was Town that game though.  But Persus's play this game looks a lot like Persus's play S6.  I don't know;  I don't have time to read and think and type.  We're not tied, so I'm not changing my vote yet.