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[Imp]

And please don't ask me what would qualify as a convincing argument. It's like hard-core porn: I know it when I see it.

My goal is to understand you, particularly your motives (can't get directly at them, I've got to go through your methods, so I'd better understand those too).  But your motives are also an indirect target - just more detectable than your alignment, which is my real target.

I need to decide if you are hostile to Town or helpful because my Wincon requires me to eliminate threats to Town.  Sadly I don't really see neutral as an option - if you're neither hostile or helpful I'm still going to judge your methods to determine your motives and discern my opinion of your alignment.  If you're a neutral then you'd darn well better chase your Wincon in a way that also serves Town because otherwise you're serving the other side, and that means you are the other side to me and can be lynched with them.

There's another issue - Lylo is coming.  I want my side to win.  I want players alive at Lylo who are able to think rationally, evaluate others accurately, and work effectively towards achieving a Town win.  Players incapable or unwilling to 'play seriously' and work towards achieving their Wincon are dangerous, and deadly dangerous come Lylo.

I'm not going to ask you further questions right now.  I've asked you quite a few, and I have an opinion of you, because of your behavior, your interactions with me, and your interactions with others in this game.  I am still collecting information, but you've given me a lot of information about yourself already.  There's other players' questions that you've not answered, and there is your own Wincon to chase.

But I have discussed with you my two-fold concern about your play.  if you are Scum, by all means play any way you see fit.  But if you are Town, Town needs you.  Town is hard, Town is a lot of work, and Town can't afford to carry other Town who are not here to work for that hard to get win.

I believe you have been chasing your Wincon to the best of your ability this game, up to this point.  I'm unsure what to think about what you've said about your medical issues and how they affect your ability to play - if you know you cannot actually play this game, I do suggest you request a replacement as soon as possible.  However, I have to assume that you are under some degree of self control and have some ability to decide what to do - and what you have done so far includes your real choices, methods, motives, and clues to your alignment as well as whatever weirdness your health situation has forced upon you.

But I'll be evaluating you on your play, like I evaluate everyone else in the game.  Drugged or not - you are here playing.  If you stay in game your posts will be evaluated: the past ones, present ones, and future ones as you make them.  I hope you understand how important it is to evaluate the effort each player is putting into the game, and what that work appears to be trying to achieve or not achieve.

I feel I've got a good read on the forum and the players now. I'll try for sanity next.

That sounds appropriate.  I'm willing to continue evaluating you.

[makeinu]

That, ser, is hard-core porn.

I agree with your assessment of Neutral, fwiw.

I'm curious to know where your suspicions lie, but I won't ask for a reveal. That's your call. I know how dangerous it can be to give the other side too much insight into your suspicions.

Cheers.

[Caz]

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play.

You were very quick to jump in on a question directed at me.

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!

Max: [/b]Take this as defending if you wish, but Tiruin does things like that all the time. I've done it myself once or twice and it can work out to get a reaction. I'm going to meta here, but do you think that doing what she did has no merit for her scum hunting, and if so why? If its just because it could seem like defending, then thats fine, but often people have more than one reason with these things.

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

Toaster: Do you have a read on anyone yet?

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

Caz:  You've made three posts so far.  You've answered questions, asked an RVS question of both Persus13 and TheDarkStar, joked around, reassured Tiruin you'd prefer to behave like a gentlewoman, pointed out that we're not all veterans, and reassured makeinu that he's doing fine.

Do your posts and their content so far reflect how you intend to play for the rest of the game?  If so, what strategy are you using, to achieve what goals?  If not, what are you waiting for before you really start to play?

Just because I haven't got into an argument yet (Tiruin and Max, TheDarkStar and makeinu) or I'm not one of the most proliferous posters in mafia (you win that title, btw) doesn't mean you can score me out as a threat to the dopps. I'm just getting started.

But to answer the question - Nah, I assume it will get more interesting once there is something to go on and something catches my eye. Atm I'm just looking for reactions. Do you really enjoy the RV stage? I don't. 5 new pages of twaddle each time I log on and it's hard to see what to focus on. How do you think I should improve my strategy?

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

[Tiruin]

Hrglblrgl. RL cuts in every coincidental time. I promise a full post in the next ~5 horus.


Caz:

True, jumping in the middle of questions is a foul. The people call foul! Death to Tiruin!
[...]
Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

While I'd take your red'ing of peoples names as you picking scummy suspects (or..a form of comedic play in choosing suspects >_>) I've to note that you aren't reading the context. Or talking ABOUT that context there.
And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!
Ugh.

And on makeinu, he replied to Jim.

All fair and valid reasons. I withdraw my request. Vote as your conscience and intuition see fit.

Why are you admitting the validity of RangerCado's reasons for suspecting you?

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Because it's a tacit admission that he's perfectly within his rights to hold whatever suspicions he wants to regarding me. His suspicions are not based on facts, but on intuition, hunch, whatever, but that does not make them any less valid for him to hold.

You must think me stupid that you'd think I'm admitting to being a doppelganger.

Somehow, you're really inclined to bite when people say 'HE'S SUSPICIOUS' without checking, huh.

Also makeinu:

That, ser, is hard-core porn.

Imp is female.
Secondly, why're you giving the notion of accepting their opinion freely? I mean, I do understand how that notion follows as an opinion, but it seems you're being quite too...fluid(?). Apathetic(?). More like uncaring about what others say in regard to suspecting you.

Do you not think they're (as a generality) wrong in some way in accusing you or your actions as such?

[Tiruin]

EBWOP

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play.

I've no idea if you're commenting here, or giving your own opinion >_> So I'll take the former.

See: Bolded portion.
Query: Do you not think we have useful information at the moment? Expound, if misworded.

[makeinu]

Somehow, you're really inclined to bite when people say 'HE'S SUSPICIOUS' without checking, huh.

I must confess, I don't understand this sentence in context.

Also makeinu:

Imp is female.[/quote]

Ah, see, I wondered at that, and took pains to check the profile first, which does not specify. Hence, ser, not a misspelling, which has been used in certain science fiction settings as a gender-neutral pronoun.

Secondly, why're you giving the notion of accepting their opinion freely? I mean, I do understand how that notion follows as an opinion, but it seems you're being quite too...fluid(?). Apathetic(?). More like uncaring about what others say in regard to suspecting you.

Do you not think they're (as a generality) wrong in some way in accusing you or your actions as such?

Uncaring? No. More, attempting not to jump at every shadow. Why should I not accept RangerCado's opinion freely? It's wrong, but objectively only I know that. For the rest of you, it's subjective. Hence, the freedom to hold those opinions should be respected.

But, to answer your question, directly: yes, I do know they're wrong.

I know my wincon and alignment. Having already been pinged as suspicious for previously throwing out assertions to them, I refuse to further that by repeating them in every post to defend myself. At the risk of being pinged for such again, however, I will do so here. My wincon requires eliminating threats to the town.

[RangerCado]

makeinu: Okay, defending yourself about something that is entirely wrong, or a misunderstanding is completely acceptable, and indeed is used by others if they notice it to further a case against the player doing the misunderstanding, but constantly saying that i'm wrong, is making me more suspicious. Your defending isn't helping you and it would seem far wiser to pursue scum hunting while still answering others questions until you find a blatant fault in your accusers argument. Yet you continue to do this mess of defending I would expect from new players not used to mafia or atleast forum mafia. (Which is what I did a lot in my games earlier) Why do you seem to be playing as if your new to the game entirely?

Caz: I'll plead guilty to trying to understand where Max was going with this. As I said, I didn't care if it sounded like defending as I was only trying to work out where the mis-guided logic was coming from and why. Also, your vote is on makeinu now because he was the last person you red texted. So who are you voting for and can you give a summary of why?

Jim: I checked every line because i'm trying to figure out what makeinu's playstyle and way of thinking is. Checking his responses to mine is a good way to check for me to start. Is there a problem with that exactly?

Max: Your pressing of Tiruin is weak at best and is over something that I believe you are just misunderstanding. Can you give a list of your current reasons for going after Tiruin, or are you currently just desperate for a suspect? Because if thats whats going on, it is incredibly scummy of you.

[makeinu]

RangerCado: In response to Tiruin, I was not defending myself, I was answering her question.

Regardless, as before, you're free to be suspicious based on your read of my actions, but your suspicion is misplaced. Barring my death and a role/alignment flip, however, I can't prove that you're wrong. If my assertion, based on the facts that I have but cannot prove, that you're wrong makes you more suspicious, then so be it.

And your scum-hunting is not my scum-hunting. Methods vary. Results matter. Right now, I have some suspicions and am laboring to separate reason from emotion in parsing those.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
makeinu: Caz, RangerCado
Max White: Persus13, Tiruin
Tiruin: Max White


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Thursday

[Caz]

And..really. Just plain foul? You take Max' word when I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

Meh, I suppose I should write down my thought process better. Caz no rite gud.

[Imp]

Do you really enjoy the RV stage? I don't. 5 new pages of twaddle each time I log on and it's hard to see what to focus on. How do you think I should improve my strategy?

I'm currently 'addicted' to Mafia and after a month of playing my first game followed by a month of playing that game plus two others at the same time, plus that for me all three of those games 'ended' (one goes on, but without me.  And I won, so for me it seems 'over') within days of each other - well, I crave and addicts can't be choosers.

RV stage is part of Mafia, and I was starting to get psychological withdrawals.  I don't care if my drug comes to me in this form or that one, I just want my drug in whatever dose and strength I can get.

'Do I enjoy RV stage?'  Ha, I'm not sure that any part of playing Mafia is actually fun.  Does anyone enjoy Mafia?  I find it interesting to the point of fascination and find it to be addictive, and consider it the safest way I've found yet to 'really practice' certain skills in a context that emulates reality a bit - after all, for pretend some of us really want to kill some of the others, and all of us are, for now, hiding our roles if not our alignments.  For that purpose, RV is a reasonable simulation of real life 'first contact' with people who have something important to hide and who may genuinely mean me harm - and irl, the 'RV stage'/'first contact' is a vital one.  If you can end the dance there, before it really starts, you're probably going to take no personal losses.  Because for me Mafia is also a form of simulation game, and what it simulates relates to real life survival, I 'get something' I interpret to have real value even from RV stage, yes.

As to 'how do {I} think {you} should improve {your} strategy', I'll draw again upon the words of Jim, acting as an IC some time ago:

For those of you who don't know what to do ... find scum, which is your primary goal.

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

If you're scum, you will obviously have a different goal: Avoid detection until the end of the game. The best way to do this is to look like you are trying to find scum.

...So be bold, and just do the best you can. You're going to play this by aggressively questioning everything you find odd or scummy. This is to get you in the habit of asking questions a lot, since that's how the game of mafia is played and won.

I re-interpret one part of that to be the core of what you should do in every stage of every game:

And because it bears repeating:  Your primary goal is to [achieve your Wincon]. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything

I think that advice is solid and useful for everyone, period.

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play.

Hrm.  Reading the entirety of the rest of your post, you've just said what you're doing in your post, haven't you.  So how do you think a Mafia game should start, Caz?  What would be better than RV stage?

[Caz]

  Does anyone enjoy Mafia?  I find it interesting to the point of fascination and find it to be addictive, and consider it the safest way I've found yet to 'really practice' certain skills in a context that emulates reality a bit - after all, for pretend some of us really want to kill some of the others, and all of us are, for now, hiding our roles if not our alignments.  For that purpose, RV is a reasonable simulation of real life 'first contact' with people who have something important to hide and who may genuinely mean me harm - and irl, the 'RV stage'/'first contact' is a vital one.  If you can end the dance there, before it really starts, you're probably going to take no personal losses.  Because for me Mafia is also a form of simulation game, and what it simulates relates to real life survival, I 'get something' I interpret to have real value even from RV stage, yes.

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

And because it bears repeating: Your primary goal is to find scum. Everything you do should help you towards that goal. And I do mean everything.

So do you thus take a bad view of anyone who jokes in mafia? Is joking itself a scumtell?

So how do you think a Mafia game should start, Caz?  What would be better than RV stage?

I prefer night starts.

[Imp]

Caz:

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

*chuckles*  My focus IRL especially is in noticing others' intentions.  I've been the victim of quite a few types of abuse in my life, starting from earliest childhood.  It's not necessarily IRL pwnage - it's IRL evaluation of threat and determination of intention, as well as 'handling pressure' that I most see connection to through Mafia.  It's IRL 'I am -not- a victim, and I will never again be victimized if that is possible to prevent.'
I try to live by what one military serviceman and martial artist wrote and called 'The Warrior Creed':

Wherever I go,
 everyone is a little bit safer because I am there.

Wherever I am,
 anyone in need has a friend.

Whenever I return home,
 everyone is happy I am there.
Given your preference of enjoying the puzzle, do you see 'set ups' you can use for puzzle pieces even from the very start of play, or is D1 really and truly wasted time to you?

So do you thus take a bad view of anyone who jokes in mafia? Is joking itself a scumtell?

No.  Communication is a tool.  Joking is a form of communication and a form of tool useage.  How a joke is used, and what use of a joke appears to be trying to achieve, just like every other action taken or not taken, that's where I try to understand method-motive-intention/alignment.

Far as I'm concerned, everything every player does -should- be working towards their Wincon.  Some players don't know how to do this yet, some players disagree that this is how the game should be played, and some players disagree that this is how they personally should play.  My job's to try and figure out what each person I'm playing with is actually doing well enough to figure out who the Scum/hostiles are.

But if you see a way to use jokes to achieve your Wincon, go for it.  If you see any other way to achieve your Wincon, go for it.  I'm just going to watch everything everyone does to the best of my ability and try to figure out what each person's posts say about their motives and intentions over the entire course of the game, filtered as much as possible for that player's unique traits (I'm not interested in lynching Scummy players, though I do believe we should lynch the Scummiest players as a rule - I want to lynch the real Scum and real hostiles, not players whose playstyles are Scummy.  That can be a fine line, so that's worth a lot of attention.)

[Tiruin]

I've to PFP this from context...
And I really don't think that post will materialize until far time later x_x

Spoiler: OOC (click to show/hide)

Caz:

Wow... Remind me not to get on your bad side if you're using even mafia as a training ground to further your IRL pwnage. O_o To me, I play because I enjoy the puzzle.

*chuckles*  My focus IRL especially is in noticing others' intentions.  I've been the victim of quite a few types of abuse in my life, starting from earliest childhood.  It's not necessarily IRL pwnage - it's IRL evaluation of threat and determination of intention, as well as 'handling pressure' that I most see connection to through Mafia.  It's IRL 'I am -not- a victim, and I will never again be victimized if that is possible to prevent.'

You did ask me about my mindset...
...
...
Yeah this is basically also how it works for me. Intent and motive sense +5

As of the mean time, any questions directed to me that I missed?

[Persus13]

Makeinu: You said you think you have a read on forum members. Care to share them? Also, I would really appreciate that you make an effort to scumhunt. Otherwise you make us think you're scummy. Defending yourself is fine. not scumhunting isn't.

Caz:

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play.

D2 is usually the most interesting/fun day so far as I've found.

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

So you jump in on Max's side with no quotes from Tiruin to back it up? You scumbuddies with Max?

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

That's a little harsh.

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

At the moment, everyone is a nulltell to me at the moment

So much nulltells on day 1. I get that this day is useful to look back on once we get some useful information, but gods if it isn't boring. Just lame posturing and jumping on word play.

D2 is usually the most interesting/fun day so far as I've found.

RangerCado: You have been charged with defending the traitor. How do you plead?

Seems like there's a couple of narrow-focused arguments going on here. In colour, no less. Fancy.

So you jump in on Max's side with no quotes from Tiruin to back it up? You scumbuddies with Max?

Apologies all around. It exacerbated my natural tendencies toward paranoia and strange behaviour.

Apology not accepted. Clearly you are worried at Imp's accusations and making up things to cover yourself. Tiruin can wait until we lynch this ponderous elf, makeinu.

That's a little harsh.

This seems like a tacit admission that you are a doppelganger. How else could the reasons be fair and valid?

Agreed, makeinu is dropping the ball here. Thus he must die.

So your argument against makeinu is because of RL issues and because of Jim and Max attacking him. I see.

Caz, Max, and Tiruin:

I haven't even answered anything of Persus or whatever he has given?!

For the record, I don't have a problem with Tiuin asking me a question. It seemed more like a question of clarification than an answer.