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[Garath]

from the same sort of question

use dfhack and its startdwarf command

ps. I don't know the searches you used, I just used the search function of the forum to look for similar questions, searching for +embark +more +dwarfs, which was actually not a good idea, but it got me the answer in the end

[WoobMonkey]

What you're looking for is "startdwarf <number>".

oops, ninja'd

[vanatteveldt]

from the same sort of question

use dfhack and its startdwarf command

ps. I don't know the searches you used, I just used the search function of the forum to look for similar questions, searching for +embark +more +dwarfs, which was actually not a good idea, but it got me the answer in the end

I searched the dfhack page at https://github.com/peterix/dfhack, maybe that's not the most up-to-date docs? Anyway, thanks!

[Raphite1]

- dodge is not aided by teacher, the squad without starting dodge is at 2/2, the unskilled dodgers in the other squads did learn some dodging but teaching had slight negative effect (5/0 -> 5/3 instead of 6/4)

I believe that personality traits also have a significant effect on giving demonstrations, learning from demonstrations, or both. This impression is based on having some embarks where a Teacher/Dodger trained up the others in Dodging quite quickly, and others where the Teacher/Dodger seems to take forever to organize demonstrations, or be less inclined to do so. Other skills that would seem to be likely candidates for this effect (e.g. Organizer) were minimal, leading me to suspect that the difference was in personality traits, which I never pay attention to.

If the above is true, it could easily explain your Teacher/Dodger results. It'd take a larger sample size to eliminate the noise from personality differences.

[Larix]

I suspect the ratio of demonstrations vs. sparring depends much on how many notable combat skills are actually present in a squad: a seasoned teacher with "proficient" and better skill in armour, dodging, shield, biting, kicking etc. will spend months or years teaching rookies the basics of those skills instead of engaging in sparring. The students will have very rounded-out skills eventually, but also take inordinate time to reach high weapon skills (which determines most of their offensive capability, provides a lot of defensive capability through parries/counterattacks and makes them safe from the buggy training unhappiness) because they spar so rarely.

On a recent embark, i ran into the perfect counterexample: just grabbed two migrants with low weapon skills (competent spear and novice axe) and novice in the basic defensive skills, stuck them in a two-dwarf squad with permanent training orders and let them go. They turned elite in about seven months and legendary in under a year, with accomplished/great shield use as defensive backup, simply because they had no skills to waste demonstration time on and thus started sparring from the first month. I'm more used to having to wait almost a year before the first sparring session takes place.

[vanatteveldt]

I suspect the ratio of demonstrations vs. sparring depends much on how many notable combat skills are actually present in a squad: a seasoned teacher with "proficient" and better skill in armour, dodging, shield, biting, kicking etc. will spend months or years teaching rookies the basics of those skills instead of engaging in sparring. The students will have very rounded-out skills eventually, but also take inordinate time to reach high weapon skills (which determines most of their offensive capability, provides a lot of defensive capability through parries/counterattacks and makes them safe from the buggy training unhappiness) because they spar so rarely.

This calls for some science in "best way to train recruits in one year". Assuming that we have a legendary soldier+teacher (which you can easily have by second spring) I can see at least three strategies for dealing with new recruits:

1) baseline: just put them together and let them train for a year
2) leader+recruits: put each leader with a bunch of recruits and let them train for a year
3) bootcamp: have each new squad train for 3 (or 6) months under the teacher, and then rotate the teacher to a new squad and let the recruits spar for the rest of the year.

The hypothesis would be that 1) gives best weapon+fighter skills but bad armor+dodge, 2) gives a well-rounded soldier lacking in offense, and 3) gives an ideal combination of good offense and decent defense. Given the results I posted earlier I would even suspect that (3) might have at least comparable offense skills to (1), but wel can test that out.

If I can get startdwarfs to work I will use higher numbers. Increasing the fps cap should also make it less painful to wait for them to finish training.

Question: Is there a way to get df to put timestamps+jobs in a log file (e.g. "[123] X starts 'organize dodge demonstration' [124] Y starts 'wathc dodge demonstration' etc). I know I can get spar results from the game log, but even there I can't see who the dwarf is (they are all "axedwarfs") and there is no timestamp, so it is pretty useless here.

[vanatteveldt]

What you're looking for is "startdwarf <number>".

oops, ninja'd

Probably a stupid question: I can see startdwarf in the repo at https://github.com/peterix/dfhack, but I just downloaded the last version from  http://dethware.org/dfhack/download/ and it can't find the script. I tried building it from source but get a lot of dependency errors (due to 32 bit?). Where can I get a current version of dfhack?

[MetalRocks]

Question: Is there a way to get df to put timestamps+jobs in a log file (e.g. "[123] X starts 'organize dodge demonstration' [124] Y starts 'wathc dodge demonstration' etc). I know I can get spar results from the game log, but even there I can't see who the dwarf is (they are all "axedwarfs") and there is no timestamp, so it is pretty useless here.

I haven't found a tool like that. But I have developed myself a very simple script (based on an existing one from here http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/User:Vjek) that could be useful for science. It is a dfhack script that lets you change the skill level in any specific skill or group of skills of a single dwarf. It can be used also to edit all the dwarves at once.
e.g.: "skill TEACHING 20" would change the teaching level of the dwarf selected to 20. "skill ALL TEACHING 15" would change the teaching skill level of all your dwarves to 15. "skill Normal 20" would change all the normal skills of the selected dwarf to 20 (farming, mining, carpintery, etc)

If you are interested I can upload it but I dont know if there is there is a specific site to upload this things (or I just upload it wherever I want and post the link).

[MetalRocks]

Uploaded the script to change the skill levels of the dwarves (I am sure someone has done it before, but I cant find it) --> http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=8162.

What you're looking for is "startdwarf <number>".

oops, ninja'd

Probably a stupid question: I can see startdwarf in the repo at https://github.com/peterix/dfhack, but I just downloaded the last version from  http://dethware.org/dfhack/download/ and it can't find the script. I tried building it from source but get a lot of dependency errors (due to 32 bit?). Where can I get a current version of dfhack?

I  think you can find the latest version here --> http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91166.0

[vanatteveldt]

Hmmm, I don't get it anymore. I setup a new experiment with student/teacher, just teacher, or no skill whatsoever, and the no skill is winning (trained up to 15 fighter / 10 axedwarf in little over half a year, while the two other groups are stuck at 5-7 axe and 8-9 fight. Armor and shield are 2-5 for no skill, 1-3 for teach or student/teach.

Once the teachers are also up to 10+15 I will setup some experiments with training noobs.

[xcorps]

ninjad.

5k castles down the drain.

[Raphite1]

Hmmm, I don't get it anymore. I setup a new experiment with student/teacher, just teacher, or no skill whatsoever, and the no skill is winning (trained up to 15 fighter / 10 axedwarf in little over half a year, while the two other groups are stuck at 5-7 axe and 8-9 fight. Armor and shield are 2-5 for no skill, 1-3 for teach or student/teach.

Once the teachers are also up to 10+15 I will setup some experiments with training noobs.

I'm telling you, it's personality differences combined with low sample numbers.

[vanatteveldt]

I'm telling you, it's personality differences combined with low sample numbers.

I hear you :-). I had actually setup a much larger experiment but I got so sick of handling the larger fortress that I decided to go back to smaller numbers. My mistake* was thinking that the results so far were consistent enough for the first part, or in other words: that personality wasn't that important compared to 5 skill points. Anyway, my real goal was to try out teaching larger groups of recruits either by themselves or with a teacher, and with "train, 2 minimum" vs "train, 10 minimum" vs splitup into smaller groups, because there is quite a lot of confusion about that on these boards. I can still do the latter since I have enough dwarves for that experiment, and I will use my larger setup to redo the teacher vs not test.

*) (social) scientist IRL so I should have known better

[Raphite1]

In truth I don't know for sure. =)

It's just my best explanation for the huge variation I've seen in my embarks. Sometimes the teachers will be efficiently organizing demonstrations and have everyone trained up in no time, other times they'll just never get around it. Lazy bums.

[dleave]

Well, to add a little to this, I have 4 embark dwarves that all started with the same amount of training, and have all been training together the same amount of time, and the one dwarf with "poor focus and little patience," has only gained a little over a level in most areas, while the other dwarves have all gained at least 2, and closer to 3 levels in most cases.