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[Leyic]

The "play as any race in any faction" thing has a lot of people concerned, considering how heavily Zeni is pushing their factional PvP end-game. Lore aside, I'm not sure that it'd make much of a difference. The racial skills are all simple passive boosts as far as I've seen, so while min-maxers may be able to fully exploit those, they won't make a significant difference for the typical player, hence there wouldn't be a lot of difference between factions other than flavor. But if they're intending this as a cash shop perk as some people are speculating, it'd be a strange and not-good way for them to go (i.e. selling functionality in a pay2play game is bad).

A few things to add to Sensei's review: They've split weapon and class skills, i.e. anyone can be a healer by equipping a healing staff, etc. Class still matters a lot in how a character plays, but it doesn't completely pigeonhole that character into a single role. I think what they're trying for is a system that's supposed to add the versatility Guild Wars 2 was after but without destroying the trinity. Of course, in Elder Scrolls fashion, you still have to use each skill a lot to be any good at it, and getting quality equipment for multiple roles and constantly respecing adds cost, so it still takes effort to have a character that's good at many things. I don't know if I like it yet, but it sounds a lot better than grinding a whole new character because my guild is running low on a given class/role or because I want to try something different.

There's also a research system within the crafting system that let's characters learn how to apply various enchantments to the gear they make. It looks extremely grindy, complete with real-time countdowns that measure in days, but it'd be nice to have some say in what I craft rather than being stuck with boilerplate recipes.

Don't expect Elder Scrolls style magic. If you want destruction spells, you equip a destruction staff. Healing spells, healing staff. Soul Trap is an ability everyone knows. Some class abilities are spells. That's all there is to that.

The worrisome part is that there are still unimplemented systems so close to release, like player guilds and daedric invasions. I'm still more excited than not for this game, but they've yet to trigger my buy impulse, and I'm finding more things to be hesitant about with each news release.

[Steeled]

I see a lot of parallels to SWTOR, which isn't a good thing. Personally I think this is going to crash and burn within a year, becoming a former shell of itself just like SWTOR.

One of the main problems for it's survival is the people who are buying it, the vast majority have only played Skyrim and they expect the game to be Skyrim + multiplayer. It's hard to feel like your the Chosen hero destined to banish a daedric god when everyone else is just as special as you. from what I've seen and read the experience also doesnt hold up extremely well compared to the exploration and freedom of other entries in the TES series. The massive amount of lore rape and how they try and get away with it has turned me away from it (such as a poisoned Argonian openly praising sithis, a 28 year old high elf queen who appearently spent the first century of her life doing something other than not existing, the capital city of the high elves being brick and mortar because 'you can't build with poetry :^)!')  The whole think just looks like an even more casualized Skyrim

At least Todd howard had the decency to clarify that the MMO isn't associated with the main games at all.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The CE also paints a very black picture, it leads me to believe that Zenimax isn't content with having a cash shop in a P2P game, they will nickel and dime you worse than EA if you give them a chance

[smirk]

Aye, SWTOR never did have enough endgame to hold anyone's interest. Once you were done playing through the narrative... that was about it.

Even so I wouldn't begrudge that of TESO, but if they're doing horrible things to lore then there's not much left to look forward to. Suppose I'll give it the try this weekend before making final judgement calls. Agreed with Leyic for now; not really seeing it worth the money yet.

[Steeled]

Aye, SWTOR never did have enough endgame to hold anyone's interest. Once you were done playing through the narrative... that was about it.

Even so I wouldn't begrudge that of TESO, but if they're doing horrible things to lore then there's not much left to look forward to. Suppose I'll give it the try this weekend before making final judgement calls. Agreed with Leyic for now; not really seeing it worth the money yet.

They completely raped the lore. And the friendly people at 1d4chan have compiled a few complaints.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Elephant Parade]

Aye, SWTOR never did have enough endgame to hold anyone's interest. Once you were done playing through the narrative... that was about it.

Even so I wouldn't begrudge that of TESO, but if they're doing horrible things to lore then there's not much left to look forward to. Suppose I'll give it the try this weekend before making final judgement calls. Agreed with Leyic for now; not really seeing it worth the money yet.

They completely raped the lore. And the friendly people at 1d4chan have compiled a few complaints.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you want to link an image, rehost it on imgur.

[Krath]

Allow me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Moghjubar]

So basically, lores rapus maximus.   While all the elder scrolls fans care I'm sure, I doubt the MMO market in general does: in the end, does it have gameplay? Art? Story? Skinner box mechanics we all know and love?  If so, they 'win' a slight amount away from MMO king.  Unsure they can break the MMO king though without something exceptional though, which obviously they don't have, but they have at least a safe bet they can get some.

[Leyic]

Skinner box mechanics...

I haven't noticed many of these. There're junk filled containers and the usual level up fanfare, but it's nowhere near as bad as theme park MMOGs like Guild Wars 2. In this respect at least TESO is more like the single player games. As far as the lore goes, treat this like some alt-universe and hope BethSoft doesn't shoehorn any of it into TES VI.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

So if I pick up a math textbook I can use math, but if I put it down I can't use math anymore?

Nicely done, TESO.

Everyone would have a belt with miniature tools sewn into it so you always have every tool "equipped", and be able to do every thing.

EDIT: @Sensei: An aversion to someone charging you twice for the same potatoes doesn't make you a cheapskate! If it was a $15 upfront and $5 a month I bet people wouldn't have such a problem with it. But at this point the monthly fee is most of the bread so I don't see why they bother with the upfront barrier.

[LordBucket]

Paraphrased summary of comments from reddit:

"This is probably a very sustainable 500k subscriber game. It's not exactly a WoW clone. But it's not exactly Elder Scrolls either. Also be aware that it's very much a themepark, and not a sandbox. In some ways the hand-holding is gratuitous. The entire map is pre-explored for you with all locations marked and it's more like choosing from a list of what you want to do today than exploring a vast world. Go in expecting a 'WoW killer' and you'll be disappointed. Go in with low expectations and you'll be pleasantly surprised. Likely to go F2P within the first year, but if you're looking for an MMO to play it's certainly not a bad choice."


Had high hopes. Want to like. But this might be a game I wait to see where it is in six months.

[alexandertnt]

Yeah, its better than I thought it could have turned out to be, but its still definetely an MMO.

Im going to mirror what others are saying and say if your looking for an MMO this is certainly worth considering, but its still no multiplayer TES.

Its also quite expensive, too much for some people to afford/justify (like myself). Although this suggests that the "Skinner Box" mechanics are going to be much less prominent and obnoxious than F2P games.

If any upcomming MMO has a chance of surviving on a subscription model, this is probably it. But I still think its going to be going F2P sometime in the not-to-distant future.

[LordBucket]

Its also quite expensive, too much for some people to afford/justify (like myself). Although this suggests that
the "Skinner Box" mechanics are going to be much less prominent and obnoxious than F2P games.

Not sure about that. Apparently it's been confirmed that the microtransaction cash shop will sell in-game items, and the preorder bonus includes both access to the Imperial race and the ability to play any race in any faction. So...they're selling boxes, there's a monthly subscription fee, you have to pay to play specific races, and after all that there's still in-game stuff to buy.

Not looking good.

[Leyic]

So if I pick up a math textbook I can use math, but if I put it down I can't use math anymore?

You're complaining about the wrong thing. If I pick up a sword I can stab things. If I put down the sword and pick up a warhammer, I can no longer stab things. That's reasonable. The problem is that they took magic and turned it into a physical weapon. It's not a bad mechanic, but it does contradict how magic works in every previous TES game.

The entire map is pre-explored for you with all locations marked...

Almost, but not completely true. Major locations are marked, but there are two mechanics (soul shards and treasure maps) where the goals are unmarked.

...but its still definetely an MMO.
...but its still no multiplayer TES.

They've always billed this as an MMO, and not as Skyrim with Friends. A lot of people are expecting the wrong thing. We can still call Zeni stupid for not producing the more popular product, but intelligent publisher is practically an oxymoron these days.

Personally, if this weren't attached to the TES IP, a ton of the complaints would go away and everyone could have a more meaningful discussion about the actual game, and not how it murders established lore. From this perspective, it's a fairly standard modern MMORPG. It's not ground breaking, but it does things just different enough to not be a total clone. End-game appears to be geared more towards faction-based PvP instead of PvE raiding, which may pull in people who are tired of the raid grind. Whether or not this game is fun in the long run and has staying power isn't obvious, but it's not going to be an instant flop.

So...they're selling boxes, there's a monthly subscription fee, you have to pay to play specific races, and after all that there's still in-game stuff to buy.

Not looking good.

This is the biggest problem IMO. They're at that level of greed where it looks like they won't respect their subscribers. Cosmetic bonuses are all they should need to incentivise pre-ordering, so having limited access content that contradicts TESO's own in-game lore is simply pathetic. They've said that these bonuses (specifically, the Explorer Pack) won't be resold, but they could sell the items individually without contradicting their previous statement.

[alexandertnt]

Wow, this is a very expensive game + a cash shop. Although I dont think a cash shop necessarily leads to skinner box mechanics, its certainly something to be suspicious of.

you have to pay to play specific races

This only seems to apply to Imperials from what I can tell. (Imperials are boring anyway ).

I thought Imperials were the most mario-ish human race too, which seems like the last race you would put behind a paywall.

They've always billed this as an MMO, and not as Skyrim with Friends. A lot of people are expecting the wrong thing.

Zenimax haven't been misleading here, as the have correctly marketed the game as an MMO. But I think alot of people really want a Skyrim with Friends, and I suspect that alot of people are sort of hoping that this game will function as that to some extent.


I also think that some people are blowing the lore thing a bit out of proportion. Inconsistant and contradictory lore is a perfectly valid reason to dislike it, but some people seem to act like this is an affront to morality itself, particularly with statements like "no one should buy this game" as if all other potential players should be similarly offended by the lore issues.

The lore issues arent influencing my personal decision to buy the game one way or another (its mostly the exorbitant price that is).

[Sensei]

Zenimax haven't been misleading here, as the have correctly marketed the game as an MMO. But I think alot of people really want a Skyrim with Friends, and I suspect that alot of people are sort of hoping that this game will function as that to some extent.

Billing it as an MMO doesn't have to mean it looks and feels like a conventional MMO. There's a number of games which case the coveted MMOFPS title, a few of them successfully, and that's basically what the single-player elder scrolls games are most similar to anyway. Of course, they went for the style of MMO originated by Everquest. If you've played it, you'll know what I mean. Walking around and fighting feels like it does in EQ or WoW, albeit with some welcome embellishments. There's a first person perspective, but it's pretty useless.