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[webadict]

Also on the subject of ICs I think the quality of ICs really only started going down around BM40. I think Shakerag set a bad example by replacing out in BM39, but to be fair he have personal emergencies. In the future though ICs should probably realize that BM's take up to 1.5 months to complete and will require ~2 hours of participation a day.

Dude, what the hell.  How does replacing out because my mom was dying set a bad example?

I feel like it encourages everyone's mom to start dying, and, honestly, I don't want that.

I think they're too slow, which discourages new players. Mechanically they're not interesting to many experienced players (who might otherwise not mind playing with beginners), and though the replacement system is supposed to keep games well stocked with players, it typically doesn't and there isn't a good replacement-list-solution. Delaying games for long periods while the replacement list is populated is bad because new players typically want to play now and they might not have the same inclination a month later, yet starting a BM with few replacements is a recipe for absent players in the mid to late game.

Here's the issues, as I see them:

- Nobody wants to replace into a game that's started. I understand that like no one else. It's too much work for too little reward, and then the players expect you to be up to their level with reading and suspicions and everything. You put a lot of pressure on even an experienced player when that happens, so putting that on a newbie is just asking them to leave.
- Beginner games a testing ground for if they even like the game, which means they could just go "I don't like the game" and leave. Which is exactly the point of the game, but this leads to the next problem in that this could ruin the game for everyone else, since this coincides with the above issue.
- Some beginners want to play a different game that we don't give access to. I don't believe this is unfair, mind you, but to them, they might really enjoy a Paranormal or BYOR or Kingmaker or what have you, but they just didn't have fun with BM and leave because of it. I've certainly tried to let beginners into my games, but, as fate would have it, they are the ones that end up leaving.
- Beginners think they suck at the game, when it's really inexperience that's making it difficult. There's no way to feel like you're improving without winning, and scum simply win more often. What's keeping the win rate down so much?

I have a question though: Why don't we allow PMs? I mean, I understand not sharing sensitive information like anything the mod says, but didn't the game seem more fun with PMs?

[Leafsnail]

Well the high scum win rate was mainly due to starting with a setup that favours mafia (C9 - on mafiascum it' was a roughly 70% mafia win), and then adding in several pro-mafia changes (the possibility of a roleblocker, the possibility of a godfather, daytalk, scum IC).  Moving forward with Bird 7P or 2of3 would probably fix that.

While the Pro-Am idea wasn't entirely serious, I do think that having some kind of continuity in a playerslot would help ease the replacement process.  Having it so that each player has a "mentor" they can talk to via quicktopic is one option.

[Imp]

While the Pro-Am idea wasn't entirely serious, I do think that having some kind of continuity in a playerslot would help ease the replacement process.  Having it so that each player has a "mentor" they can talk to via quicktopic is one option.

Oh oh great idea.

Doesn't even need to be a personal mentor maybe.

If the OP had included a list of names (might change each BM, might be something people sign up for) of people I could PM (or anything) for advice, I would have used that option.  Unfortunately my questions would have been mostly along two categories:  1) Is this scummy?  Is this case reasonable?  2)  I think this is inappropriate, what should I do about it, and is it inappropriate?

Those kinds of questions may not be delightful to answer though.   

[Leafsnail]

That's a decent idea, but the idea behind my proposal was that the mentor could easily replace into the slot being mentored if need be, since they have a good idea of what the replaced player was thinking and their plans (a mentor to multiple players wouldn't be able to replace in at all, as they'd have additional information on other playerslots).  The mod could still look for a beginner to replace into the slot, but if no replacement were found then at least the playerslot wouldn't fall silent.  Same goes if a mentor goes missing, it would be less likely for both a mentor and a beginner to flake at the same time.

Of course this would require us to up the ICs per game from 3 to 7, but I think that would probably be manageable.

[notquitethere]

If we think that ICs are unreliable and that the game is too scum-weighted, one solution would be to allow neutral observers to comment in thread about bad arguments they've seen and so on.

Why don't we allow PMs anyway?

[webadict]

If we think that ICs are unreliable and that the game is too scum-weighted, one solution would be to allow neutral observers to comment in thread about bad arguments they've seen and so on.

Why don't we allow PMs anyway?

ICs aren't unreliable. They're actually fairly reliable. And neutral observers already do comment on the beginner mafias. I know I do.

The scum-sidedness is indeed powerful, so I suggest making the game fairly town-sided.

[Leafsnail]

PMs make lylo situations strange.  For example, there would be no real reason to claim cop at lylo - you can just pass your result through someone else.  If that other person is town then the mafia stay in the dark about who the cop is, if they're scum, well, it's not like that's any worse than if you just claimed in the thread.  Confirmed townies can also demand that massclaims be PMed to them, preventing the mafia from making any counterclaim at all.

[Mephansteras]

PMs make lylo situations strange.  For example, there would be no real reason to claim cop at lylo - you can just pass your result through someone else.  If that other person is town then the mafia stay in the dark about who the cop is, if they're scum, well, it's not like that's any worse than if you just claimed in the thread.  Confirmed townies can also demand that massclaims be PMed to them, preventing the mafia from making any counterclaim at all.

It does balance out the scum-sided aspect of things a bit, since that seems to be an issue.

Mostly, I don't find PMs to be a big deal as long as you don't get confirmed townies easily. Paranormal has always had them, and other than the Ghost I can't think of any times where it really unbalanced the game any. And the Ghost is a terrible idea that no one should ever use again, so that shouldn't be a problem. And in general people have had a lot of fun with them.

[Leafsnail]

Well both the proposed BM setups have a cop, so confirmed townies would be pretty easy to make.  Bird 7P is also open which allows for easy claim-confirmation (indeed, this is required to make the setup balanced).

[webadict]

Well both the proposed BM setups have a cop, so confirmed townies would be pretty easy to make.  Bird 7P is also open which allows for easy claim-confirmation (indeed, this is required to make the setup balanced).

But, there's no actions that will matter, save for the doctor. So, potential abuse is limited.

[Mephansteras]

Well both the proposed BM setups have a cop, so confirmed townies would be pretty easy to make.  Bird 7P is also open which allows for easy claim-confirmation (indeed, this is required to make the setup balanced).

But, there's no actions that will matter, save for the doctor. So, potential abuse is limited.

True, if Vanilla Townie is a perfectly reasonable claim then all scum will just claim that. Sure, you know some of them are lying, but that's not much different from normal mafia. And if there is a Doc and they aren't dead, you are stuck with a situation where the doc has to predict if the scum will off the Cop or the Confirmed town.

It might help a little, but it shouldn't be game breaking. And since scum seems to win most of the time anyway...what harm in giving town a potential edge?

[Jim Groovester]

I'll be running BMXLIV.

Are there any changes that need to be made in the ruleset or role setup?

About the only thing I'm interested in changing is limiting the amount of extensions so Day 1 doesn't take two weeks.

If the popular consensus is against the idea I won't include it, of course.

[zombie urist]

A few BMs ago Nerjin? implemented something about having no real set day length on MYLO/LYLO situations I didn't really go with that because it wasn't necessary but I think you should look over that part. Also he put in a clause about not using extensions -> no more extensions that day which you should probably bring up at the start of day since that part is buried in the rules.

[notquitethere]

I'll be running BMXLIV.

Are there any changes that need to be made in the ruleset or role setup?

About the only thing I'm interested in changing is limiting the amount of extensions so Day 1 doesn't take two weeks.

If the popular consensus is against the idea I won't include it, of course.

I'm wholly in favour of less extensions: we want to encourage people to play, not bore them away with interminable days.

[Imp]

I'll throw out my opinion here - I am of the sort of player for whom extensions do not = boredom or disinterest (they may equal that, but it is not assured they do).

When I read the rules of my BM they appeared to clearly state how extensions and shortens could be used within the game.

The control of time, in both directions, like any other vote, takes a group decision.  It's easier to 'fight' an extension than it is to fight a vote - shorten works.

We can impose our expectations upon the BM to come.  But the tools for those who don't want the game lengthened already exist in play and need only be noticed and typed.