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Author Topic: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion  (Read 1411 times)

Abadayos

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Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« on: November 19, 2013, 06:58:45 am »

Hello all

I have been messing around in DF for around 2-3 weeks now I guess it would be, making forts, experimenting and trying out ideas I have come up with. Some have worked, many have failed and cost me the fort, but I've never been annoyed in it happening as it's FUN.

Now I have a fort going for 4 years or so and it's sitting at around 110 dwarfs. Now it's not a bad thing, FPS is still good even with the animals and all that jazz, however the issue I am running into is having many many idle dwarfs. Now I don't usually have a large military and I know I could just draft a load into that and call it a day however I feel it's not optimal use.

I feel that, to be honest, the migrants came in too fast (I was at 100 by near the end of year 2, the extras are babies and children that have came of age and I have a 80 pop cap). I know I need to better use my dwarfs as either more miners and more industry related jobs but I simply do not know which way to go into how to get these little bastards to work and not sit around in the meeting hall drinking booze and partying.

Now I have not penetrated the first cavern on this map and have not finished off my wall and training center so that is soemthing to do, butthey are both short term. Any thoughts on how to expand in a useful manner?
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Rauthr

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2013, 07:42:20 am »

If you have any metals on map as well as some trees for charcoal, or ideally lignite or bitonimous coal, you could start up a metal industry with some forges and later magma forges to occupy some dwarves with smelting metal as well as hauling around ores and fuel. Although you may want to look into minecarts and such for hauling, as it's much more efficient and fast (but dangerious, but that is as it should be.)

Alternatively make them all into masons and engravers and start a megaproject.
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0cu

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2013, 07:44:25 am »

Until most of your dwarves are employed with some proper jobs, you should limit your Pop Cap to deny future migrants.
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Abadayos

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2013, 08:07:21 am »

Yeah it seems I should of limited the population as it just shot up to 167 dwarfs after accidentally turning 'off' the pop cap (maxed at 250 for some reason, no idea how it changed). Guess I'm lucky I have back up saves every season so I can go back and have the original world saved (1050 year history..however the saves are getting over 600 meg per...so that sucks).

Maybe I'll make a new embark and limit it to 50 so in theory it will cap out at about 80 with how the pop limit thingy seems to work.

Also...in the second year I had a dragon show up just as a human caravan showed up. Seems a maceman can 1 shot a dragon with a lucky skull crush and brain splatter...and I was worried, but got insanely lucky.
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Dozus

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2013, 09:44:59 am »

A related newb question: How does one limit population caps?
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Finn

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2013, 09:54:23 am »

There is a setting in d_init.txt which is in your data/init directory.  You want to set it to something less than your desired final population as migrations won't stop until the dwarf caravan leaves the map and reports  a  population is higher than the cap.  (<- slight simplification).

edit: nija'd, too slow
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 11:33:16 am by Finn »
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.

Thief

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2013, 10:17:13 am »

Be a tyrant Cut every tree dig every Z-level Use dwarves for military Capture FB's or Dragons andTrain dragons.
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Remind me never to leave you in charge of a fort that requires basic math to survive.

MaGicBush

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2013, 11:28:42 am »

I posted the exact same thread about a month ago when I started playing as well lol. Yea I ended up just starting over and lowering the pop cap to 50 as well, as I don't like having idle dwarfs(they make to many friends which later can cause issues).
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Thief

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2013, 11:54:09 am »

You could put 3 squads Per 100 dwarves And make the rest train their skills
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Remind me never to leave you in charge of a fort that requires basic math to survive.

Abadayos

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2013, 04:58:05 pm »

In the end I started a fresh world, this time with a 450 year history and  now the big thing is finding a good embark location without a tower near by....this worlds got so many! >.<
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WanderingKid

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2013, 05:01:31 pm »

Idle dwarves are not a horrible thing.  It's a massive workforce waiting to be used for random projects.  AKA: The harvest just came in.  100 haulers to the rescue!

Oh, look at that, FB's are showing up in my... oh god, I don't have a wall there!  Emergency masons... GO!

I have a generic hauler class in my forts that tend to idle... a lot.  When I need emergency X power they all get turned on at once and off they go.  It's not that big a deal, they just drink a lot.

EvilBob22

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2013, 05:26:06 pm »

Good point, you always need a few idlers.  I have been having the opposite problem, almost no idlers.  It is great when things are running smoothly, but when you need the dwarf power to get things done (like clean up after a siege), it takes forever.
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I will run the experiment to completion anyway, however. Even if the only reason why there is a punctured equilibrium in the fortress is because I have been brutally butchering babies
EDIT: I just remembered that dwarves can't equip halberds. That might explain why the squads that use them always die.

Burnup

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2013, 06:55:05 pm »

I've posted a bunch of versions of this, and it just keeps getting longer.. So forgive how long it has gotten, but it has helped quite a few people over the years.

One of my particularly favorite things to do in DF is to have a perfectly scheduled military. I usually have all dwarves in the military (except for a core skeleton crew of eight) And have a series of alerts that swivel my military into action. I also usually have a different alert for every direction the enemy might come. I have alerts from 0 people on duty to all ppl on duty and many stages inbetween.

Normal alert - each squad: 1/3rd train 1/3rd patrol 1/3rd civilian, with only 1/3rd of squad ever being on duty.
Medium alert - each squad: 1/3rd train 1/3rd patrol 1/3rd civilian, with only half of squad ever being on duty.
High alert - each squad: 1/3rd train 1/3rd patrol 1/3rd civilian, with only two members of squad ever being off duty.
High North alert - Northern walls/towers/choke points
High West alert - Western walls/towers/choke points
High South alert - Southern walls/towers/choke points
High East alert - Eastern walls/towers/choke points
All Hands On Deck alert - Everyone, at all times.
Fallback1 alert - First choke falls!
Fallback2 alert - Second choke falls!
Fallback3 alert - Third choke falls!

(Can also be Fallback1 North, Fallback1 West, Fallback1 South, Fallback1 East, etc..)

Civi1 alert - First of the civilian burrows (stay underground!)
Civi2 alert - second of the civilian burrows (Stay out of top two stories!)
Civi3 alert - third of the civilian burrows (Get near the "Final Bastion"!)
Haven Alert - I usually create a way of sectioning off food industry / living quarters into a "Final Bastion" This alert drops all defenses, except for the drawbridges that need to close for the "Final Bastion" to be sectioned off.



You may ask "how do you keep up industries?"
A lot of scheduling.
because of each squad having civi duties 1/3rd of their year. between all the squads cycling throughout the year, Every month is a new "main" industry. The correct industry becoming the "main" Almost immediately when you begin thinking you need it.

MONTH       Squad1       Squad2         Squad3
1                Train!          Patrol!          Civilian!
2                Civilian!        Train!          Patrol!
3                Patrol!         Civilian!         Train!
4               Train!          Patrol!          Civilian!
5                Civilian!        Train!          Patrol!
6               Patrol!         Civilian!         Train!
7               Train!          Patrol!          Civilian!
8                Civilian!        Train!          Patrol!
9               Patrol!         Civilian!         Train!
10               Train!          Patrol!          Civilian!
11                Civilian!        Train!          Patrol!
12               Patrol!         Civilian!         Train!

Keep in mind that for any scheduled order, you need to specify how many units in the squad you want to follow it.
[If you order over the amount of units in the squad to follow an order, then no one will follow it.]

(rigorous trial and error isn't exactly necessary for this. Just have "jobs" be really loose (idle) until you find a need for that person that month [or if you have need of him a different month, then put him in one of the squads that has that month off.]. after a good 2 - 4 in game years everyone should be extremely busy.) (you shouldn't let it get to '0' idle. DON'T GO THERE. But it shouldn't be above 24 idle.[I usually maintain between 4 and 15.])

Ever since I've developed this system and gotten the hang of it, I haven't needed traps at all, I haven't needed danger rooms, nor elaborate defenses, and after I get up to at least 100 dwarves I don't even need gates (except for deadly dust and such..) Infact I have a fort with 250 dwarves, 242 being in the military, whose defensive strategy was built around getting as many people on the surface as possible without cluster %$&@ing. It ended up with 8 different "airlocks" to the surface in strategic positions each with a barracks in it. each barracks having 3 squads. The point was to open all "airlocks" at once. My worst battle losses were 12 deaths ^^ against 10 cave dragons, 10 trolls, 20 goblin spearmen, 10 goblin macemen and 10 goblin archers. (rough estimate) I believe there were 4 enemy leaders.

(because of the airlock positioning I was able to flank almost every enemy grouping effectively, at the correct times.)

One main drawback I've had in this build is when mass producing clothing/armor just to have all 250 dwarves drop their rotting clothing all over the place, leaving it to be cleaned by the poor skeleton crew of eight plus or minus a few off duty soldiers.
(It takes a good amount of time to clean up, plan everything to be gradual.)

You may ask about such a forts happiness level,

A little too much idle time and everyone becomes aquianted, especially if you only have one dinning hall or your dinning halls are close quartered.
Way too much idle time makes them all related. (this has happened to me with a populace of 120.) Great for end game, when tragedy is far and inbetween. But for a fledgling fort.. eh

parties are good.
But I personally keep my people on a rigorous schedule through military training / sentry / patrol duties / industrial direction as to control how many are attending parties and how many are idle at any one time.

I've noticed that happiness is like any resource in this game, Yes you can mass produce and flood yourself with it. But the trick is to create perfectly only what you need. This is what I believe is the essence of efficiency.
I use happiness as a combative measure against tragedy. I've noticed surrounding in general happiness makes them overreact to the bad.

a couple of my policies for example is:

complaining about long patrol duty? double patrol for you for a month! once back into his old schedule he will be happy (relieved).

You didn't enjoy the last slaughter? Have an awesome home for you and your family! And now you are part of a more front line squad!

You lost a loved one? Awesome home for you too!
Lost another loved one? Look, smooth walls in your home!
Another? Look, an engraving on your floor!
Another? What an amazing tomb you have!
etc..

In the end I keep there lives rigorous and barely-joyful unless their mentality is going downhill. everyone who has not been in battle or been effected by tragedy live in slums and are quite content.
Everyone else lives in luxury and are ecstatic about their tragedies. I've had some that enjoy slaughter, so I leave them in slums. Then one day they're pissed about something random, so I move them up. Keep the trump cards for when you need them.

Mass parties are more for if you've lost half your populace to zombies or something, and are trying to reccuperate mentality and populace in one darring swing. But even then, you'd just be trying to avoid a tantrum spiral by buying time for immigrants to arrive and make this depressed bunch of partyers the minority. (Or for vanity, if you think no tragedy can happen. Then by all means, party away)

I find I don't take it upon myself to kill any one of my dwarves. I just have them fight every battle with honor, no traps, no walls. Therefor my population keeps steady, I weed out the weak, and sometimes my veterans go down in a burst of glory like they should. Everyone but a skeleton crew of eight are in the military 2/3rds of the year. (1/3rd training, 1/3rd patrol/sentry 1/3 civilian work) I've taken mass losses, without a single dwarf tantruming. I've had a fortress that lived long enough to see the original embarkment dwarves die of old age, followed by 2 more generations. Still no tantrums. The trick? Keep the trump cards close to your chest for when you need them. No sooner, no later.
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Aslandus

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2013, 10:25:58 pm »

If you're exponentially growing population keeps going, you should build more farm plots. Make several of your idlers into farmers and make sure they have field farming (I don't know if that's the actual name) enabled. If nothing else, it'll give you a supply of food to boost your dwarven cook's skills and give you some prepared meals and alcohol to trade (I'm a bit new myself, so I don't know how good prepared meals are, but I've heard they can let you easily buy out caravans)

Urist McRas

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Re: Newish player needing advice on fort expansion
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2013, 11:06:55 pm »

If you're exponentially growing population keeps going, you should build more farm plots. Make several of your idlers into farmers and make sure they have field farming (I don't know if that's the actual name) enabled. If nothing else, it'll give you a supply of food to boost your dwarven cook's skills and give you some prepared meals and alcohol to trade (I'm a bit new myself, so I don't know how good prepared meals are, but I've heard they can let you easily buy out caravans)

Yes, they can, but you don't really need big farm or many farmers. What you need is a skilled farmer, because he produces big stacks of plants from each tile.

If you want prepared meals as a trade good, concentrate on quarry bushes, I had a 80000 bucks worth of stack.

And I never sell alcohol, it is not worthy of it.
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The mountainhome has far too many degenerates too deal with by itself, so it sends out minor nobles to establish penal colonies across the world.
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