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[sackhead]

snip

if it is unplayable how did you play it for 200 hours?
i am personally insulted by you calling it unplayable

[Jackboot]

The UI is a bit messy, I must admit. But if you can get used to it, it's fine. I'd really love to see improvements made to it, but I'd rather that waited until Toady was closer to having all the coding completed.

Besides, if it was easy then all sorts of casuals could play it and we wouldn't have the prestigious right of being able to brag to people who couldn't manage to get into Dwarf Fortress and be really elitist on the forum.

"Oh, you use a tileset? Tsk. I only play with the original ASCII graphics while standing upside down in the rain."

[anzelm]

That's what you really care about?  Did ruling over dwarves destroy your humanity dwarfity?

FTFY; Also, LOL

But seriously, this game is anything but mainstream, and that makes it good. It is complex and difficult to play, so the player base is much different from that of an ordinary shooter/rts/pseudo-crpg/whatever they make theese days. Toady won't change his course of development just to please some target audience and, paradoxically, his target audience represented on this forum also doesn't want that (at least that's my general impression).

As for the UI, please for the love of Armok understand, that this game cannot be controlled efficiently with a mouse and some colourful icons. The current design has some minor flaws, but it is generally efficient (a opposed to 'easy to use'). For me it feels kind of like using vim - awkward at first, but all the functionality is accessible. It even adds to the immersion: you are a beaurocrat running a colony of half-drunk, half-mad midgets, digging it's way to <censored spoiler>. It's not supposed to be easy!

TL;DR: Go play starcraft and stop trying to understand commited gaming. You obviously can't.

[Putnam]

That's what you really care about?  Did ruling over dwarves destroy your humanity dwarfity?

FTFY; Also, LOL

But seriously, this game is anything but mainstream, and that makes it good. It is complex and difficult to play, so the player base is much different from that of an ordinary shooter/rts/pseudo-crpg/whatever they make theese days. Toady won't change his course of development just to please some target audience and, paradoxically, his target audience represented on this forum also doesn't want that (at least that's my general impression).

As for the UI, please for the love of Armok understand, that this game cannot be controlled efficiently with a mouse and some colourful icons. The current design has some minor flaws, but it is generally efficient (a opposed to 'easy to use'). For me it feels kind of like using vim - awkward at first, but all the functionality is accessible. It even adds to the immersion: you are a beaurocrat running a colony of half-drunk, half-mad midgets, digging it's way to <censored spoiler>. It's not supposed to be easy!

TL;DR: Go play starcraft and stop trying to understand commited gaming. You obviously can't.

Yeah, this is totally wrong. The UI is a problem. It's inaccessible, inconsistent and organized badly. This is a noted problem. An intentionally bad UI is what is known as "fake difficulty". The UI isn't the reason the game is hard.

[anzelm]

Yeah, this is totally wrong. The UI is a problem. It's inaccessible, inconsistent and organized badly. This is a noted problem. An intentionally bad UI is what is known as "fake difficulty". The UI isn't the reason the game is hard.

With 'Intentionally bad' you went a little too far. You say UI is bad, I say it's not (or I don't care for an improvement, which means the same thing for the purpose of this discussion). You say graphics are bad, I say DF needs no graphics.  It's all opinions and preferences - if Toady starts revamping the UI and adding real graphics, it won't stop me from playing. The point is, this game is complex and requires using your brain to enjoy it. It's not meant for the mass audience, and that's good.

[Jackboot]

Yeah, this is totally wrong. The UI is a problem. It's inaccessible, inconsistent and organized badly. This is a noted problem. An intentionally bad UI is what is known as "fake difficulty". The UI isn't the reason the game is hard.

With 'Intentionally bad' you went a little too far. You say UI is bad, I say it's not (or I don't care for an improvement, which means the same thing for the purpose of this discussion). You say graphics are bad, I say DF needs no graphics.  It's all opinions and preferences - if Toady starts revamping the UI and adding real graphics, it won't stop me from playing. The point is, this game is complex and requires using your brain to enjoy it. It's not meant for the mass audience, and that's good.

I think we're missing the point here that DF is in super early alpha stages. The UI is not really something developers fix in the early alpha stage. If he fixes the UI now, he'd have to code around it later, rather than chop it all up and repair it much later on. Have to look at it from choosing between immediate gratification and a long-term improvement.

[Putnam]

Yeah, this is totally wrong. The UI is a problem. It's inaccessible, inconsistent and organized badly. This is a noted problem. An intentionally bad UI is what is known as "fake difficulty". The UI isn't the reason the game is hard.

With 'Intentionally bad' you went a little too far. You say UI is bad, I say it's not (or I don't care for an improvement, which means the same thing for the purpose of this discussion). You say graphics are bad, I say DF needs no graphics.  It's all opinions and preferences - if Toady starts revamping the UI and adding real graphics, it won't stop me from playing. The point is, this game is complex and requires using your brain to enjoy it. It's not meant for the mass audience, and that's good.

"It's not supposed to be easy" is a pretty elitist thing to say, is what I'm saying, and I hate that argument in general for defending the UI. I don't think the UI as it is should be defended. The keybindings are fine and can stay the same; the only real offenders there are, say, arrow keys vs +-. The main issue is organization; how are you supposed to know that "v" and "k" both have extremely similar features?

[FrankMcFuzz]

The main issue is organization; how are you supposed to know that "v" and "k" both have extremely similar features?

Because of the giant tab that tells you what the keys do?

[Putnam]

Not what they each do, how similar the two are. Keys are placed pretty much willy-nilly over there with no categorization. There is no way to tell that mining is under "designations". Things like that.

[Finn]

If any of you actually give a damn about the game and Toady, you need to see past your own insanity and start living in reality. 

The UI is not a problem? 

Acting like the UI is the only problem? 

I made small, legitimate criticism about the best unplayable game ever made and proposed a solution, therefore I must just be a noob, or a scammer, or whatever?

I propose that a 20 to 30 year project should be delayed for 6 months to a year to make it a better experience for everyone playing for the next 10 to 20 years and I'm the one who's crazy?

Not to mention it's blatantly obvious how many of you didn't read the post, which is pretty ironic for a forum where people read about a text for graphics game.

Wake the hell up, there's a ton of people who start playing this game and really like it but stop after a few months because of the endless problems and pointless tedium.  Not everyone wants to spend an hour picking up 200 pieces of clothing strewn about the floor (which dfhack's solution doesn't really solve).  Or the endless mozaic of forbidden bolts.  Or the sisyphean task of dealing with the military.  Or micromanaging basic construction of roofs/floors to prevent cave-ins.

Most people have only a few hours a day to enjoy themselves, and they don't want to spend 2 hours of it banging their head against a wall trying to get a dwarf to pick up a dumped item, and then have to resort to cheating at the end.  Not everyone is obsessive compulsive, masochistic, or unemployed.

Just look online for reasons why people stop playing DF (that is, those who got into it but stopped after a while).  It's almost never "Felt I accomplished everything I wanted in the game and experienced it to the fullest."  It's always "Endless, eternal, unstoppably maddening tedium of dealing with forever broken dwarfs."

You're all the kind of people who not only have the time to play such a game, but talk about it on the internet too.   You could at least give a damn about the multitude of other dwarf fortress players who don't.  The ones who want to enjoy this work of art, but are essentially forced out of playing.

And beyond that, you should care about Toady.  If he spends 6 months to a year, out of a 30 year plan, after 10 years of unrelenting feature addition, to polish his game that a lot of people are already playing, then down the line that time investment will mean a lot more people will play it regularly that wouldn't have otherwise.  It would change the curve of his donation income entirely.  Plus you would give him a huge 100,000$ bonus.

You think Toady doesn't care about his retirement?  You think he doesn't care about his healthcare?  He mentioned it in an interview already, that his healthcare plan is don't have one.  That his retirement plan is have enough to coast for maybe 3 or 4 years if donations stop entirely.  He's a human being like you and me, not some machine that spits out code and dwarfs.  And other players than the ones on this forum are human beings too, they deserve to enjoy the game without contemplating ritual suicide after another dwarf gets punched in the brain because he failed a production mandate.

No, you'd rather get your extra 6 month or year worth of features.  That's what you really care about?  Did ruling over dwarves destroy your humanity?

I give a damn, and I proposed a solution, that the community give Toady a bonus for a hard 6 month to years work of making this game play better for 10 to 20 years.

That's not fucking wrong.

@Leonidus; As the "first responder" to your original post I feel that I owe you a special apology as my first post may have influenced the tone of the thread.  I have read your original post several times since then, as one tends to do with post to which they have an emotional reaction, and I have to say that I now believe that my original assumptions were 100% wrong.  I do NOT believe that you are a troll who has been posting under different accounts hoping to stir up passion for what would ultimately end up being some "kobold thievery."  I DO believe that you are someone who has played the game, loves the game, and would love to see it "in better shape."  I believe you saw what you felt was a problem, came up with what you felt was a viable solution, and then DID something about it.  All that is to be admired. 

I sincerely apologize for my boorish and hostile response.  As I said in another post somewhere in the middle of the thread, not one of my better moments.  I am sorry.

Finn

[Viking]

I love dwarf fortress but I will be the first to admit the usability is an issue and while this proposal may or may not work at least it was put forward in good faith. I am a little embarrassed by how derisively some people have responded to the OP here. I see Finn's apology here which I am sure the OP appreciates but the DF community certainly can be pretty touchy :\

[Leonidus]

Wow, I'm really surprised by the better reaction and better posts guys.  I cannot thank you enough for at least being more reasonable in talking about it.  Finn and WanderingKid in particular.

Finn, made me think of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4yz4zKmIrg

Look, I realize a lot of you are perfectly fine dealing with DF the way it is today, but I'm just saying there's plenty out there who obviously weren't, and that's what made so many stop.  People who could already look past text only graphics.  People who could play a game with no significant instructions.  Not exactly the most console-addicted-EA-Games-playing-AAA-title-buying prototypical retards.

I think it should be addressed, but only Toady can address it, and because he isn't inclined to, incentivizing him with money looks like the only option.  It would help Toady, it would help the players, it would help the game.

I'll sum up with a text based chart to maximize clarity to the illustrious DF playerbase:

Total Development Years Of Dwarf Fortress, proposed by Toady

==============================   30 equals signs signifies 30 years.

Total Development Years Of Dwarf Fortress, new proposal

=============================== 31 equals signs signifies 31 years.  Maybe only 30.5, I would take 6 months no problem.

Total Time The Game Was Improved by adding 1 extra year
                    ==================== 20 equals signs signifies 20 of the 31 years.

Total Time The Game Would Be Similarly Improved, Toady's Plan
                                                    =  1 equals sign signifies 1 year wrapping things up at the end of 30 years total.

Everyone gets an easier time for 20 years, by pushing the whole thing back by 1.  Not too outlandish, in my opinion.  Especially after 10 years of nonstop feature building, and right after he finishes up his latest version (and subsequent debuggery) would be a good time to hit it off.  WanderingKid, I'm aware of his plans to do it this way and that's exactly why I think we need to just try to get him to do it earlier.  So that the game is made better like this for the next few decades, instead of after the next few decades.

I also never thought just the UI was the thing.  That would be the easiest stuff, few months tops to just reassign some keys, add some more specific actions, and some actions which do things to entire types or groups (like buy all wood from trade window, etc).  What I really want to see dealt with is the inherently dysfunctional parts of the game which lead to a lot of effort on the player's part or are just really, really bad.  I'll write a quick list at the end.  You know the kinds of things I mean.

Anyway, my timing was obviously horrible as it coincided with a slew of similar single post accounts on the same or similar subject.  And most of you are clearly appalled at the idea of it regardless.  I can only hope that taking this into consideration, you might rethink how much 1 year of some smoothing out could do with only a negligible impact on the development arc of dwarf fortress.

Serious commendations to everyone for taking a more dwarven-science-logical approach in subsequent posts, as opposed to the less desirable dwarven-fell mood-insanity style.

A Very Easy List To Write Of Things Which Have No Business Still Happening And Should Not For 20 More Years
----------------------------------------------
Getting military to equip correct items
Legendary military dwarves lose all labor preferences
Hassle getting military to actually spar, make low number training squads
Military stuck on individual training
Military waiting forever for demonstrations
Removing pets requires extraordinary means (bridge, lava, etc), why not let squad attack or butcher
Emptying cages, particularly with seeds, is a hassle (special setups, extra effort required to do it well)
Disarming caged enemies is unnecessarily laborious
Wheelbarrows, according to wiki, can usually decrease efficiency
Dwarves dropping some items on impassable tiles
Dwarves blocking their own construction site
Dwarves causing cave ins during roofing, caused by corners and bridges seen as support
Forbidden bolts everywhere
Clothing thrown everywhere
Dwarves misusing room containers
Dwarves misusing furniture already designated for other purposes (sleeping in soldier barracks, hospital beds, other wonderful stuff)
No stockpile option for gypsum plaster
Armor stands only allowing 1 glove and 1 bolt
Citizens dying from justice (should make death sentence an option not an accident).  Even more fun when your hammerers constantly refuse to equip safer weapons.
Stacks of bone or singular bone ignored by mood, even after deconstructing butcher shop or newly butchering livestock
Diplomat chasing mayor who is constantly doing the few labors which cannot be unassigned
Nobles so annoying that they are counterproductive and a lot of players just never promote to one
Metalcrafting can choose material but not mason (need to do SSS - Stupid Stockpile Shenanigans)
Art defacement allowed on masterwork clothing rotting away or bolts leaving fort
Hauling goes for farthest items and places in most distant place in the stockpile
Hospital chest storage ridiculosity
Some grazing animals cannot sustain themselves

The UI would be the quick and easy part, I'm afraid.

[Elephant Parade]

Everyone would get an easier time for 20 years, by pushing the game back by 1.

As people have said before, Toady doesn't want to work on the UI, both because any work would become pointless later and because he wouldn't find it interesting. I don't blame him. Wasted work is incredibly frustrating; ever lost an assignment and had to redo it?
Personally, I don't mind the UI. People who can't figure it out lack the PROPER DEDICATION to become TRUE DWARVES!
More seriously, I would be sad if the game was delayed a year for UI updates that would become pointless before too long.
As for bugs, those are pretty much constantly being fixed. I'm not a programmer, but I somehow doubt fixing bugs is as easy as you think.
Finally, the new UI would probably require maintenance, which would probably delay updates a bit.

[ShadowHammer]

Severed limbs aren't 'z', they're ^'2'...

My whole life has been a lie!

On a more serious note, I never even thought of the UI as being incomprehensible. Before I got the game, I was unable to download it for three days after I had heard about it. I thought that this game looked really cool, and I refused to be stopped by the supposed "learning curve", so I spent the three days pretty much entirely reading tutorials and things. By the time I actually got the game, I already had half the key combinations memorized, so I never considered the UI to be an obstacle. However, after seeing this (and related) threads, I can understand why people would want a new UI. However, as already stated, Toadybadger does what he wants, so I don't think that this idea will cause a change in the course of development.

[misko27]

I just really don't see Toady doing this. I mean, it could happen, but, ehh, reasons; reasons I'm sure you have been and will continue to be introduced to.

But above all, Toady just prefers content work to other stuff. Toady could spend a straight year working solely on even just the bugs, but he wouldn't have any fun, it wouldn't be interesting to read, and there would still be a substantial amounts of bugs left over. But above that, realize this game is a alpha work-in-progress with no expiration date. Everything is on some level a placeholder, so many thing will be fixed when he gets to them. Fixing them now means they will be broken later, and he doesn't like dealing with that.

Also, I still don't see the point of kickstarter in this.