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[E. Albright]

This may come down to what exactly you mean by "hard counter" and "soft counter", as well as if we're talking about counters to the mechanic in the abstract, or to a random hypothetical troop (which usually seems to end up being an EA jag).

Trample is a hard counter to the Blood Vengeance mechanic, full stop. If you successfully trample someone with BV, BV never triggers. There are far fewer tramplers who could hope to make the cut as hard counters to arbitrary BV units, but if this is "true" only because there are counters to them outside BV, it's questionably "true". If I have to count all counter-counters before considering if something is or is not a counter, then e.g. mass evocations aren't a counter to 9F9W9D jags because of the possibility of elemental protection spells...

As to glamour, that's probably more contentious as to where it falls. By the descriptions of tests I read, it's not true to say glamour negates BV, unless you simply mean glamour prevents BV from auto-hitting once the MR check is passed. What I'd read suggested that BV triggers as normal, but then has to pass a glamour check; if it does, however, it proceeds as normal. Hence why I lumped it into the soft counter camp. Now, admittedly, a random glamoured unit will be far more presentable as something resembling a hard counter to the typical hypothetical BV unit, especially since troops with glamour tend to be high MR too...


As we still have a full compliment of human players, I'm planning on force-hosting in about 8h. I'm not going to be draconian about it since the delay was my own misguided doing, but I'd really like to do so; if the outstanding turns can get turned in by then, it would be much appreciated.

[Margrave]

Just posting to say hurray for the first Bay12 Dom4 game and to fight the good fight. I was also curious about how well a major Blood bless would work against human opponents and a little relieved that it wasn't unstoppable.

And to quietly mention that if anyone (hypothetically speaking) has something come up or needs to temporarily sub in a player I'd be willing to throw my hat into the ring.

[Knave]

Sorry, for the delay, was sick in bed yesterday and not feeling the dom vibe. Will get it in shortly!

[lijacote]

Just posting to say hurray for the first Bay12 Dom4 game and to fight the good fight. I was also curious about how well a major Blood bless would work against human opponents and a little relieved that it wasn't unstoppable.

And to quietly mention that if anyone (hypothetically speaking) has something come up or needs to temporarily sub in a player I'd be willing to throw my hat into the ring.

The sacred monkeys of Bandar Log are still (to my knowledge) untested in battle, so they might still prove unstoppable. They do have a different bless, though.

[E. Albright]

Just posting to say hurray for the first Bay12 Dom4 game and to fight the good fight. I was also curious about how well a major Blood bless would work against human opponents and a little relieved that it wasn't unstoppable.

And to quietly mention that if anyone (hypothetically speaking) has something come up or needs to temporarily sub in a player I'd be willing to throw my hat into the ring.

Actually, we need a sub for Mictlan. However, because Mrhappyface is rather disingenuous, we found this out after he submitted this last turn setting the 5th largest nation in the game to AI (following his statement that he'd keep playing, natch). So unless we roll back to last turn, we don't need a sub ATM.

On a totally unrelated note, do we want to roll back and sub Margrave in for Mictlan, or shall all of the southerners see how fast they can reduce the once-proud nation to a clean-picked carcass?

[sum1won]

Just posting to say hurray for the first Bay12 Dom4 game and to fight the good fight. I was also curious about how well a major Blood bless would work against human opponents and a little relieved that it wasn't unstoppable.

And to quietly mention that if anyone (hypothetically speaking) has something come up or needs to temporarily sub in a player I'd be willing to throw my hat into the ring.

Actually, we need a sub for Mictlan. However, because Mrhappyface is rather disingenuous, we found this out after he submitted this last turn setting the 5th largest nation in the game to AI (following his statement that he'd keep playing, natch). So unless we roll back to last turn, we don't need a sub ATM.

On a totally unrelated note, do we want to roll back and sub Margrave in for Mictlan, or shall all of the southerners see how fast they can reduce the once-proud nation to a clean-picked carcass?

Ugh.  I was worried this would happen, but didn't want to make any aspersions because I thought he might actually have been sincere.  I'd support a rollback, personally, but some of our northern neighbors have a bit of a war going on.

[lijacote]

Just posting to say hurray for the first Bay12 Dom4 game and to fight the good fight. I was also curious about how well a major Blood bless would work against human opponents and a little relieved that it wasn't unstoppable.

And to quietly mention that if anyone (hypothetically speaking) has something come up or needs to temporarily sub in a player I'd be willing to throw my hat into the ring.

Actually, we need a sub for Mictlan. However, because Mrhappyface is rather disingenuous, we found this out after he submitted this last turn setting the 5th largest nation in the game to AI (following his statement that he'd keep playing, natch). So unless we roll back to last turn, we don't need a sub ATM.

On a totally unrelated note, do we want to roll back and sub Margrave in for Mictlan, or shall all of the southerners see how fast they can reduce the once-proud nation to a clean-picked carcass?

Personally, I am totally fine with a rollback in a situation like this. Nothing superserious happened in my wars (or so I think).

[Darkwind3]

Nothing substantial happened in the war this turn, so I'm tentatively fine with a rollback if it happens. That said, a rollback is pretty big and very easy to screw up accidentally, so I'm not sure that a rollback is called for, as unfortunate as Mrhappyface going AI is. The game can just as easily continue without Mictlan.

[Il Palazzo]

This turn I finally had a money-bringing event happen to me. Still, I'd rather not see Mictlan go AI.
I vote for a rollback.


In other news, I'm testing sieging in SP. (gee, I wonder why?)
The attacker has got over 300 militia, some 50 bandar apes, 30 forest trolls and 60 praghasas. The defender has got 420 undead.
The walls are unharmed.
I bring in 300 wolves, and the walls go from 850 to 50 in one turn.
I take the wolves away, and the walls get breached anyway.

Anybody understands what's going on?

[lijacote]

This turn I finally had a money-bringing event happen to me. Still, I'd rather not see Mictlan go AI.
I vote for a rollback.


In other news, I'm testing sieging in SP. (gee, I wonder why?)
The attacker has got over 300 militia, some 50 bandar apes, 30 forest trolls and 60 praghasas. The defender has got 420 undead.
The walls are unharmed.
I bring in 300 wolves, and the walls go from 850 to 50 in one turn.
I take the wolves away, and the walls get breached anyway.

Anybody understands what's going on?

It's a capitol, right? I've understood that there's a bug with castle improvements - they won't report as being damaged even if they are, and it's only until you get to the fortification's own defence value that it starts showing up as damaged (in the message reports anyway).

[Knave]

Having a player Mictlan will definitely be harder for me, but I'm all for a rollback if we can get another player in.

[E. Albright]

One thing I'll say as a cautionary note to any sub we might get for Mictlan if we decide to go the rollback route is that you'd be inheriting a setup far more tailored for an EA Mictlan blitz game than our current medium-sized MA game: an A9W9B9 bless plainly tailored for jags who are cap-only in MA, and a dominion just as toxic as you'd expect IOT afford that. The hypothetical sub would not be stepping into loose, flexible shoes.

[Il Palazzo]

Further siege testing:

Looks like, as per the manual, mindless units counting as only 10% of normal repair value is false.

I've tested 120 militia and 30-odd forest trolls(total siege strength ~240). They could not breach walls defended by 420 undead(~50 strength according to the manual). I waited 20 turns to make sure there's no buggy messages involved.

This does not bode well for anyone hoping for reasonably quick relief from Burden of Time, heh.

[Margrave]

One thing I'll say as a cautionary note to any sub we might get for Mictlan if we decide to go the rollback route is that you'd be inheriting a setup far more tailored for an EA Mictlan blitz game than our current medium-sized MA game: an A9W9B9 bless plainly tailored for jags who are cap-only in MA, and a dominion just as toxic as you'd expect IOT afford that. The hypothetical sub would not be stepping into loose, flexible shoes.

I thrive under difficult circumstances.

Or more likely I will collapse and die and learn all over again why I don't usually play Bless Nations. But either way I want to get back into Dom games, massacre or not. And it's way better than having an AI going crazy.

[lijacote]

Looks like, as per the manual, mindless units counting as only 10% of normal repair value is false.

That's a known bug that's going to get fixed in the next patch. With that in mind, I've tried to defend my castles with mindful (and not mindless) troops to retain some dignity.