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[Moonlighter]

Hear me out before crucifying me as a non-believer, but the obtrusive UI and very basic user-created graphics are the main reasons why this community stays relatively small (for such a great game) and so fanatical. The simplistic and easily mimicked art style of other simulation games that claim DF as their main inspirational forces are finding themselves by far more financially successful. I'm not saying DF should become these games. I'm saying DF should learn from these game's success stories as indie titles from very resource limited developers (much like Tarn). The donation/reward system is admirable, truly, but I think Toady could find himself in a much more financially comfortable situation if he focused on making the game more accessible (which doesn't mean removing the complexity of the simulation, by the way). Toady and his brother deserve to have the fruits of their labor be as productive as possible. I think the UI is of equal importance as Dwarf Fortress' gameplay features right now, which Toady probably disagrees with fervently. And that's fine. The UI is horribly ineffectual right now, and turns the vast majority of possible fans off to the game, even more so than the graphics. Most can deal with roguelike graphic systems, if the core gameplay and storytelling ability remains intact. What really ruins DF for new players is the UI, whether we as a community want to admit or not. Don't we want Toady to be rewarded for all his hard work? Don't we want the community to grow and prosper, with new eyes and ears to take a look at an evolving product? Just food for thought I guess, I'd like to hear your opinions.

[hermes]

Hey, Moonlighter, welcome to the forums.

You should probably use the search function for this, there are lots of threads on this topic, and some from within the past few weeks in General DF Discussion.  This FAQ thread is also useful for info.

Some of your presumptions seem wrong... namely, small community?  DF has a huge number of people who know of of the game and play it and, AFAIK, a relatively large number of people who are active in creating content for the game and on the forums every day.  Awareness of the game is, IMO, spectacular for a game that has never been advertised by the developers.  DF has to be one of the most famous indie success stories of all time... right?  There are many interviews with the programmer where he talks about exactly what you bring up.  Check out the FAQ and do some googling to see where the devs stand on this.

edit - This interview jumps to mind.  Hope that helps!

[Dyret]

More than anything I feel Toady and his brother deserve to be treated as adults who understand their project and whose decisions regarding it are rational and considered ones.

Other than that I don't care either way. I consider DF as is an early version of something weird and wonderful, and I enjoy being along for the ride, watching and exploring it as it develops, but I don't expect anything anything from it, and I really don't care what anyone else expect from it.

[Moonlighter]

Hey, Moonlighter, welcome to the forums.

You should probably use the search function for this, there are lots of threads on this topic, and some from within the past few weeks in General DF Discussion.  This FAQ thread is also useful for info.

Some of your presumptions seem wrong... namely, small community?  DF has a huge number of people who know of of the game and play it and, AFAIK, a relatively large number of people who are active in creating content for the game and on the forums every day.  Awareness of the game is, IMO, spectacular for a game that has never been advertised by the developers.  DF has to be one of the most famous indie success stories of all time... right?  There are many interviews with the programmer where he talks about exactly what you bring up.  Check out the FAQ and do some googling to see where the devs stand on this.

edit - This interview jumps to mind.  Hope that helps!

Thanks for the additional information, I'm looking into it now. As for my assumption it's a small community, I was comparing it to other indie giants such as FTL, Prison Architect, Minecraft etc. In comparison the total income that Toady sees is small, and it should be much larger imo. A shame quality doesn't always get the quantity of consumers it deserves.

[King Mir]

I actually agree with all of that. But it's up to Toady what he chooses to prioritize in development. The one thing you can do is vote for Interface Improvements here

[thvaz]

DF vs FTL

DF vs Prison Architect

Minecraft is just a beast, I think it would beat every AAA title on Google Trends.

You can't measure DF success by cash alone, as cash isn't what the developers sought, but the continuous and steady development of the game until it is finished.

That said, the UI sould be improved, but I understand the reason it is not the focus by now.

[Sutremaine]

In comparison the total income that Toady sees is small, and it should be much larger imo.

How much do you, personally, think DF is worth?

[Laserhead]

I got a mental image of pointing JAWS at DF. That'd be a nightmare.

[Noodz]

I suggest reading the New York Times article on DF. Before throwing himself into games, Tarn was a star math student who got accepted into 15 PhD programs, including MIT and Stanford. Had he decided to pursue an academic career, he'd probably be a tenure track professor by now.

And the same article also mentioned DF attracted at least one employment offer (which i imagine pays very well).

It also describes Tarn's modest home, and how little upkeep he has.

The point is that had Tarn chose to make money, he could be pretty well off by now. Instead, he decided to do what he believes is fun. By the state of the UI, i believe he thinks tweaking the UI quite boring. And since his material needs are already satisfied, there's little reason to stop doing a challenging and fulfilling activity for making more.

In the long run, i'm quite sure Tarn's decision on focusing on the actual game features will pay off.

[Finn]

Hear me out before crucifying me as a non-believer, but the obtrusive UI and very basic user-created graphics are the main reasons why this community stays relatively small (for such a great game) and so fanatical. The simplistic and easily mimicked art style of other simulation games that claim DF as their main inspirational forces are finding themselves by far more financially successful. I'm not saying DF should become these games. I'm saying DF should learn from these game's success stories as indie titles from very resource limited developers (much like Tarn). The donation/reward system is admirable, truly, but I think Toady could find himself in a much more financially comfortable situation if he focused on making the game more accessible (which doesn't mean removing the complexity of the simulation, by the way). Toady and his brother deserve to have the fruits of their labor be as productive as possible. I think the UI is of equal importance as Dwarf Fortress' gameplay features right now, which Toady probably disagrees with fervently. And that's fine. The UI is horribly ineffectual right now, and turns the vast majority of possible fans off to the game, even more so than the graphics. Most can deal with roguelike graphic systems, if the core gameplay and storytelling ability remains intact. What really ruins DF for new players is the UI, whether we as a community want to admit or not. Don't we want Toady to be rewarded for all his hard work? Don't we want the community to grow and prosper, with new eyes and ears to take a look at an evolving product? Just food for thought I guess, I'd like to hear your opinions.

You asked for our opinions, here is mine:  I think your post is similar to many, many other posts with the same basic theme.  You want to rant about some aspect of DF, you want Toady to change it to suit your schedule, and you hope to rouse the community to help by claiming that you're really just thinking about what's best for Toady.  I wish you the best of luck with that.  I certainly understand your frustrations about the UI, but I think your post is so full of incorrect assumptions that you are not likely to raise much support.

[Arbinire]

I agree largely with Finn's response and tbh I'm not entirely sure that all these posts about the UI lately are from different people.

If they are though it's amazing that people can't seem to grasp the concept that Toady isn't making this game in the pursuit of profit.  I've had this discussion with an RL friend of mine a few times, and even he can't seem to understand that.  He's said it time and time again that this is a labor of love and that he's making the game he's wanted himself.  You just aren't going to convince him at all with the whole money angle of things, whether it's through false altruism or more honest "this is what I personally want" posts.  Money isn't his motivator for creating DF.

Just be patient.  It can't be stressed enough that DF is still in Alpha build, and once the important internal stuff is finished that's when we'll see the polishing, like UI improvements, Graphics implementation, Accessability.  These things don't make a game, they're just the things most players see.

[MaGicBush]

While I very strongly agree the UI needs fixed to keep a hold on more players(number one factor in anyone not sticking with the game), I doubt it will happen anytime in the next few years realistically. Toady doesn't seem to care much what the community thinks about certain features, and does his own thing with the game. Which I am not saying is wrong or bad in any way as it's his project to do what he wants. I am just stating the facts as he seems to not be in it for the money or the players.

[Mopsy]

I agree largely with Finn's response and tbh I'm not entirely sure that all these posts about the UI lately are from different people.

Greened for poignance. The effectively identical opinions and arguments of this cluster of "new" posters make me, too, suspect that they are either sock puppets or part of some hive mind. Are you a sock puppet, Moonlighter? Do the names "quietlyconfident" and "theredlongitude" sound familiar? If they don't, look them up. The three of you would get along wonderfully.

[k33n]

The UI is a legitimate issue, but the graphical one is not. The fact that the game is non graphical and text / description based is one of the strengths. It also has much more exposure and player base compared to the indie titles you mentioned, save for mine craft which is not exactly "indie".

[Moonlighter]

I just want dwarf fortress to be as successful as it can be, and to do that, Toady does need to fix the UI. The reason why mod utilities have flourished isn't because the game is complex, it's because because of how impenetrable and unwieldy the current in game systems are. There is no excuse for the shoddy UI design, no matter how fanatical this community is about the game developer. This is the point where the community's fanaticism becomes counter-intuitive and unproductive. We all enjoy Dwarf Fortress, don't get me wrong, it's just that we should realize it's faults instead of portraying it as perfect. Doing this will help direct Toady's attention to the UI, which needs to be done at this point. The game's been in development for years now, and the UI has barely even changed. That's not progress.