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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 366440 times)

Eric Blank

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3420 on: December 15, 2023, 08:56:17 pm »

I was on imgur last night and came across a discussion on the legality of extracting minerals from the seabed, which led to a comment by someone who did their masters thesis years ago (pre-2016) on the international space treaty and read the ISA notes in regards to its application to extraction in space, and they posted their thesis for public viewing here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C6DG5pXNo84rek1eBcmNPyuMW8QmGXko/view

I read through it and thought about this thread, and thought you all would like Iike to see it too. I think they do make a good point that a new treaty is necessary (I didn't realize the existing one was so limited in scope and lacking exact definitions) and liked their ideas for how that could be handled. But, I noticed where they detailed how profitable ventures were concerned with dividing up returns between interested nations/parties equally (as the common heritage of all humanity), they didn't consider allowing setting a flat cost between all interested buyers, so say 100 parties are interested, each party would pay 1/100 of the total for their portion, with the total based on the cost of the venture and agreed upon profit margin for the undertakers of the endeavor. If the parties allowed to sign on included corporations/businesses, that could quickly get divided into thousandss of pieces with each paying the appropriate portion, but if it's limited to nations, it could only be a few hundred at most. Then you could see distribution within those states according to their laws/intended uses, for instance further materials science or manufacturing, auctioning to other parties or public monuments/museum or arts pieces, or potentially distribution to the population for private use/collection. By clearing up the legality of who gets to use materials, and enforcing law and regulations on their collections (not to mention launches and tracking objects), we'd be a lot closer to actually having space exploration and exploitation than on the current paradigm, where it seems it's either illegal or a lawless free-for-all with inevitable Kessler syndrome grounding us for eternity.
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3421 on: December 16, 2023, 06:37:12 am »

"Unable to connect" to the Google Drive ..no wait, it's loading on a redo, just before posting. Must have just been a glitch at my end. (But I haven't read the item iteslf yet, just replied below based upon existing background knowledge.)

Whatever that treatment is, AIUI the problem is that the current OST binds nations only, not private/corporate individuals outwith the aegis of such nations.  Technically, a nation could internally coerce its own citizen/company to stick to the laws it wishes to obey, but there's limited possibility of any other country doing so. And already there was scope for the then-unforseen possibility of a non-govenmental effort being ...'allowed' to do things that the nation itself could not, and then 'oops, sorry" at the mosst on the international scene.

There's also the issue of whether the OST is indeed strong enough to prevent (as a NASA official posited, recently) China claiming the Lunar South Pole "just like the Sprattley Islands" (and no doubt the US would also like to engineer its own irrefutable claim to the choicest crumbs available, assuming that there are crumns). It'd have to be done by setting up an actual manned 'research' base and complaining mightily about 'encroachment' and 'safety issues' if another nation's research team started to try to 'claim jump' their non-claim-honest.

Enforcing an egalitarean shareout from all corporations to all (interested) Earth-parties is... hmmm... Would a member of one block of nations be forced to allow a member of another block of nations (e.g. US and Russia) to fairly participate in such a scheme if there's currently sanction schemes on terrestrial resources and business? If there's a ban on Unobtanium deposits being exported, then the same company obeying such Earthwise controls surely cannot be allowed to provide space-Unobtanium without any further comment?

((But now I need to actually see if that linked-thing covers this sort of issue, and the other things I might or might not be considering. Apologies for the precipitate reply, now that I see that it's not a dead-link after all...))
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3422 on: December 25, 2023, 03:50:53 pm »

Ok, it has taken a while to actually get through those 50ish pages, due to distractions. (EB knows that I was also a bit diverted by the writing style of it... ;) )

Boiled down, though: Considering the ESA as a likely legal arbiter of 'space exploitation' is clearly pie-in-the-sky. It would need to be UN-level. Or better, if there is a 'better', given the UN's less than total control over even Earthly matters. That's without even going into the actual issue of national/supranational beligerance. Though it would appear that this is the conceit around which the paper is written (when it isn't reference either down to the existing ISA or up to the propsed ISA2), so obviously that's the slant.

It's also a bit out of date. Some of the things (being written between 2011 and 2016, going by a references and forward-looking dates) are upended by more recent developments.


Oh, and I'm a little wary of having mass-launching cannons set up to deliver off-Earth materails to Earth, in bulk, as matter of course. If anything it's more effective than just 'releasing' a so-called-Crowbar from orbit. Given that this (if taken literally) will just result in Crowbars also in orbit.




My hoped-for contribution to the exploitation of space, by the way, is a concept that I have called many things in the past but (on this occasion) I shall call "ViSAGE".
Spoiler: VISAGE... (click to show/hide)

...I suppose that tallies more with the 'special responsibility' aspect, though.


I also have a plan for distributing any arbitrary extraterrestrial territory (that is allowed to be released from 'communal use') to avoid land-grab-by-occupation or any related shaningans. But that can probably wait for another day...
« Last Edit: December 25, 2023, 05:25:19 pm by Starver »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3423 on: December 27, 2023, 07:50:21 pm »

Whatever that treatment is, AIUI the problem is that the current OST binds nations only, not private/corporate individuals outwith the aegis of such nations.  Technically, a nation could internally coerce its own citizen/company to stick to the laws it wishes to obey, but there's limited possibility of any other country doing so. And already there was scope for the then-unforseen possibility of a non-govenmental effort being ...'allowed' to do things that the nation itself could not, and then 'oops, sorry" at the mosst on the international scene.
I always knew Elon was going to beans it for humanity

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3424 on: January 25, 2024, 09:52:03 pm »

In the last day or two, it's been revealed that Japan's main lunar landar toppled over[1] and Inginuity seems to have had a rotor-mishap on Mars, putting an end to its ability to fly[2].

...just thought it interesting to note the two semi-related failures of otherwise disparate missions. Can't think of another (separate) mission that could make it a rule-of-three, though. (Fingers crossed against a more general coincidental failure in one of the other concurrent missions going on, just for the universe granting some sort of rhetoric fulfilment.)


[1] Though it proved the capability of the 'companion rover' to act as communication relay, and images were taken, so didn't become an actual Beagle 2-like failure. With the exception of the unbalancing (because of or despite its efforts) it also seemed to prove the viability of autonomous assistive self-control.

[2] After an amazingly long time as the first and only off-Earth UAV. But the ground-roving mission goes on, and apparently that was going to travel quite fast so might have been torn between holding back to let helicopter hops keep up with it or saying goodbye to it anyway...
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3425 on: February 22, 2024, 07:05:37 pm »

Following on, the rule of three actually came to pass with Peregrine failure, which I could have anticipated.

But the next one's the charm! (Not yet updated on that page, but will be soon if the news is correct. And also if the news is prematurely optimistic.)
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Ziusudra

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3426 on: April 19, 2024, 12:45:23 pm »

Second-biggest black hole in the Milky Way found

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... with a mass 33 times that of the Sun. And, in galactic terms, it's right next door at about 2,000 light-years distant, meaning it will be relatively easy to learn more
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Robsoie

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3427 on: April 19, 2024, 01:57:42 pm »

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King Zultan

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3428 on: April 20, 2024, 01:51:50 am »

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And, in galactic terms, it's right next door at about 2,000 light-years distant
Dear god, should we start panicking now or should we wait a bit then panic?
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Ziusudra

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« Last Edit: April 20, 2024, 08:08:02 pm by Ziusudra »
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3430 on: April 20, 2024, 08:26:28 pm »

NASA Veteran’s Propellantless Propulsion Drive That Physics Says Shouldn’t Work Just Produced Enough Thrust to Overcome Earth’s Gravity


I'll believe it when they prove it, though.

I don't have much faith in this being what is suggested, based upon the reporting style. Even tested in a hard-vacuum chamber, this is not a substitute for space (where there's no physical connection to any test-stand, either conductive or not), and I can't help feeling, from all my attempts to extract useful info from this report (and there are no 'other' reports, that I've seen, merely repeats/restatements of this one) that this is just a fancy self-deflecting magnetic compass of some kind, not actually producing the alleged asymmetric capacitance-force effects.


I mean, I can see possible practical applications for any sufficiently powerful electrical 'jet engine', as well as electromagnetic tether-through-magnesphere options for propellant-free adjustments/trade-offs once in orbit, but consider me extremely sceptical about the 'science' behind whatever it is that's not being well described in this report (or anywhere else that I poked around in, to fill in the gaps).
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Telgin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3431 on: April 20, 2024, 11:20:00 pm »

I'd say I'd eat my hat before this turned out to be a legitimate discovery, but I don't have a hat.

Until it's tested in a vacuum in deep space, I'm going to believe this is an effect from the Earth's magnetic field or something like that.  The scientists and engineers working on it must know that's a possibility so... they must have tried to account for it, but it's got to be something in that vein.

This doesn't feel like real science, even aside from the blatant violations of known laws of physics.
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bloop_bleep

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3432 on: April 21, 2024, 02:52:44 pm »

The discovery of a "fundamental new force" by a guy selling something does stretch my belief. Like, a pretty large amount.

Most likely it's just an error in controlling the experiment which he spun.

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Ziusudra

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3433 on: April 22, 2024, 03:19:39 pm »

NASA’s Voyager 1 Resumes Sending Engineering Updates to Earth

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NASA’s Voyager 1 spacecraft is returning usable data about the health and status of its onboard engineering systems. The next step is to enable the spacecraft to begin returning science data again.
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Telgin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3434 on: April 22, 2024, 03:51:00 pm »

It's honestly incredible that the probe still works, and equally incredible that they were able to reconfigure it remotely to bypass the faulty part.  I guess there's almost no such thing as overengineering on something like that.
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