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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 366453 times)

jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3315 on: February 21, 2023, 06:29:29 pm »

I don't see the new space race as manned race to the moon but more down to earth affair.

In recent years China's space program has rapidly advanced, and while SpaceX have been a game changer allowing USA to claim a huge foothold before anyone else, I would not discount Chinese industrial might yet.

The USA certainly don't seem to: https://spacenews.com/space-force-considers-public-private-partnerships-to-respond-to-crises/
« Last Edit: February 21, 2023, 08:46:29 pm by jipehog »
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Duuvian

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3316 on: February 21, 2023, 10:06:10 pm »

Some things in space are limited by treaty for possibly obsolete reasons (not talking about the ban on weapons in space that should be expanded imo outside of the emergence of hostile aliens or space pirates to justify the massive expense). If that was changed perhaps it would give more reasons for encouragement to a nascent space industry to expand outward.
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FINISHED original composition:
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Sort of finished and awaiting remix due to loss of most recent song file before addition of drums:
https://www.box.com/s/s3oba05kh8mfi3sorjm0 <-zguit

delphonso

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3317 on: February 22, 2023, 12:06:13 am »

The news here only occasionally mentions the Space Station. I learned that they have finished setting up equipment and did the first space-walk at the station from Western news sources. I think it's just a sort of side note in the public's point of view.

This is a bit frustrating. I remember only a few of my students were aware of the first rabbit landing when it happened. But then again, no one here thinks the moon is fake, so maybe there's just less discussion of it in general.

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3318 on: February 22, 2023, 08:35:38 am »

China is very much Russia v2, space-wise. The cross-pollination of Soyuz-like and Mir-like inspiration in its current crop of manned projects is clear, even if you didn't know that they were nudged in that direction at times of closer technical union. Though updated, and without the zee-rust, somewhat.

Yes, China is doing a lot. Has done since the seventies (I remember hearing a recording of that satellite's broadcast[1], basic synthesised tune very much like a stylophone, but the context of the source made it somewhat haunting, as I recall). I think they're both ambitious and capable enough to progress, and (separate from the necessary military refocus of Russia) seem destined to be the "second place space power" quite soon. If they aren't already, in an insular way. But the US (with SpaceX to take up the man-rated slack it had to surrender to on retiring the remaining Shuttle fleet, at least until the Boeing capsule gets used for real) is probably going to keep its edge for at least the time that Artemis takes to deliver its major milestone (severe and unavoidable upcoming problems with that excepted).

In two decades, though, who knows? And the current footing of quite recent manned missions and space-station building could well be judged (in hindsight) by far the most successful technical development of this time. But that's a long time, with more than one down-to-Earth issue that could interrupt any (or all) country's(/ies') space ambitions. Or favouring them (you shouldn't ignore the likes of India, for example). And with around half a dozen or more prominant private launchers out there that might join SpaceX in getting from mere hardware delivery to manned missions in their own dight.


I really think that the various races on the ground (technological, political, social, arms-, etc) are the first worry. They'll dictate how long the current space trends continue, before some game-changer makes for something I wouldn't know how to predict. Imagine something like the Cuban Missile Crisis could have made the original race a moot thing. Or what happened as the collapse of the Soviet Union basically froze the Russian space effort[2a]. Basic failings/bad luck/bad management (to not predict and mitigigate the specific instances of bad luck!) with Colombia and Challenger vastly changed the US plans[2b] for its manned space-program. There are all kinds of other inflection points I might mention that did or didn't happen that might have turned out otherwise[3], most of which don't initially rely upon either the sharp or blunt end of an actual rocket and yet have logical ramifications in how these things go.

(And space-treaty stuff. For starters, US, Ru and Ch, if not also others, could deliberately Kesslerise ourselves, in response to surface politics. Heck, Musk could be (inadvertently?) setting up the feedstock for what is (initially) something like a Starlink constellation catastrophy. If things tip the wrong way at some point. But active militarisation of space and/or blanket space-denial could be further out there. Lets see who lands at Shackleton Crater first and (de facto) claims the Lunar ice, for example. Or who gets to nudge a handy asteroid much more into Earth's orbit (or a handier and more artifical NEO) for Fun And/Or Profit?)


((Delphonso, I get the feeling that your adopted nation will probably ramp up the coverage when it's into less of a "catch up" mode. Getting a possible "space first" under the belt. But possibly also they have so much other need to keep the wide and diverse nation happy that while more Earthly matters are needing addressing/repressing to support the Party it is still a side-note to the rest of the news. It's not as ground-breaking as the Two Nukes One Satellite, even. Compare and contrast with NK currently internally shouting about its (military) missiles?))


[1] I also remember being told it was the first music in space... But maybe I was told it was the first "broadcast only" music, as I no know that NASA had played music in space, and on the Moon, in various manned missions in the '60s.

[2a+b] As both of these prevented Buran from taking an operational place in space history...

[3] And ones that did? What if CERN did not support Tim Berners-Lee, and we had no Web, would that then not create the rise of Paypal and Amazon so we never got super-rich Musk and Bezos doing their various things as they have done. Where are we then? All else being equal, Russia is the only place the US can go to for man-launching, for so long, China (as with us) not yet at a stage to be that option, political ramifications reverberate well beyond merely space. Or, through a different quirk of fate, music and airline magnate Branson doesn't get into Scaled Composites and LauncherOne, but somehow revives the Hotol spaceplane for the UK and perhaps (still, because social media didn't create the conditions for Brexit) EU dominance? What situation would I be discussing on Bay12's Gopher pages (or BBS, or rec.games.dwarffortress, or whatever was the near-universal Internet front-end/backbone/whatevertheanalogy)?
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delphonso

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3319 on: February 22, 2023, 09:24:20 am »

((Delphonso, I get the feeling that your adopted nation will probably ramp up the coverage when it's into less of a "catch up" mode. Getting a possible "space first" under the belt. But possibly also they have so much other need to keep the wide and diverse nation happy that while more Earthly matters are needing addressing/repressing to support the Party it is still a side-note to the rest of the news. It's not as ground-breaking as the Two Nukes One Satellite, even. Compare and contrast with NK currently internally shouting about its (military) missiles?))

I reckon you're right. I'll be happy to see it when it happens, as space is one of those deep rooted loves of mine, and I'd love to talk to my students and see that excited sparkle in their eyes over the possibilities. Though, the purpose of space travel is more explicitly military here than it was in the US (we all knew it was about superiority, we at least didn't talk about it that way.) Alas, time will tell.

jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3320 on: February 25, 2023, 06:35:26 pm »

Some things in space are limited by treaty for possibly obsolete reasons (not talking about the ban on weapons in space that should be expanded imo outside of the emergence of hostile aliens or space pirates to justify the massive expense). If that was changed perhaps it would give more reasons for encouragement to a nascent space industry to expand outward.

Hopes against space militarization are optimistic I think. All that space treaty boom de yada nonsense will get thrown out of the window as soon as spaces activity grows big, accessible and profitable enough with competing interests resulting in same ol same ol legalistic and jurisdiction everywhere else.

That why USA right now is in its proverbial rush to plant its flag everywhere controlling space infrastructure. This is essentially the reason why China is building its own space station, because USA can and have barred China from the "International" Space Station and similarly could bar any other competitor from using any of its infrastructure.

But that's a long time, with more than one down-to-Earth issue that could interrupt any (or all) country's(/ies') space ambitions. Or favouring them (you shouldn't ignore the likes of India, for example). And with around half a dozen or more prominant private launchers out there that might join SpaceX in getting from mere hardware delivery to manned missions in their own dight.

USA have many partners all over the world, the civilian space drive with spaceX at the helm gave it the lead (and I suspect that Putin's war will further improve USA and allies market share) but still China has become a dominant player in recent years and India despite our attempt to leverage it as China counter is not there (rough and likely inaccurate but useful for scale graphic)

Right now the race isn't to the moon. The race is to develop space infrastructure. That why I like Musk, his humanity dreamer stuff has their purpose, but more importantly he has solid development economical plan on multiple vectors to establish the infrastructure to get there under this civilian boom de yada idealism.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2023, 06:42:03 pm by jipehog »
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King Zultan

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3321 on: February 26, 2023, 04:30:14 am »

So does this mean that we're having a Space Race 2: Electric Boogaloo?
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3322 on: March 01, 2023, 12:15:56 pm »

We can hope so, but meanwhile China also leaning into the commercial sector. Upgrading its small sat production capabilities, and is underway with its own starlink-like constellations, with planned upgrade to its space port and space station.
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3323 on: March 07, 2023, 11:06:35 pm »

Some interesting points: Developments in Asia-Pacific’s Space Industry
https://thediplomat.com/2023/03/developments-in-asia-pacifics-space-industry/
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3324 on: March 08, 2023, 05:37:45 am »

For some reason, I find it interesting/amusing that Russia never even gets a namecheck, unless I missed it, in that article. The closest it gets is clearly being one of "the six countries in the world that can reliably launch satellites," but otherwise it's really only the US that (as competition or cooperation) is mentioned in conjunction with the various AP actors.
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3325 on: March 08, 2023, 07:51:13 am »

Yeah, in recent years Russia have been crowned as the first former space power. A stark change from as recently as 2013, when Russia controlled around half of the global commercial launch industry. 

At the time US and Russian space programs were tightly coupled, and much of the world relied on Russian hardware. However, in 2014 Russia annexed Crimea and subsequently threatened USA with counter sanction in the realm of space, since then US has been working to reduce its reliance on Russian hardware, which gave rise to private space-launch competitors, such as SpaceX which has become dominant player, reducing cost and lead to much innovation.

Here some recent launch statistics for reference to see how things changed and considering Russia most recent aggressive actions against Ukraine Russian prospects isn't likely to improve.

Orbital: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_in_spaceflight#By_country
Suborbital: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_in_spaceflight#By_country_2
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 08:00:20 am by jipehog »
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3326 on: March 08, 2023, 10:27:17 am »

March 2022 itself probably put the brakes on far more than the whole time from 2014 until then. There were some OneWeb satellites, and some other european payloads, almost about to be launched when the whole invasion started. They first of all stopped things to paint out the UK/EU/whatever flags (trying to shame the initial sanctions away) then brought the whole stack back in to unload the relevent packages. (And possibly get a screwdriver to them, looking at them to see if they could get any useful technical info or at least justify a propoganda claim thst they'd be used to spy against the Motherland.)

Last I heard, after effectively being written off at our end, Russia was attempting to barter a swapsie for Soyuz stuff currently 'stranded' in ESA's spaceport. Which smells of desperation (and add that to the mysteriously malfunctioning Soyuz) if they actually want to try and hand back potential payload in return for their own bits of actual rocket.
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3327 on: March 08, 2023, 02:28:40 pm »

Meanwhile today we have the first 3d printed rocket launch to space by Relativity space, a possible challenger to SpaceX
If anyone interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR8I6BdgxQU
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McTraveller

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3328 on: March 15, 2023, 02:24:34 pm »

Arghghghg I can't stand the way media is reporting the "2046 Valentines Day asteroid."

They keep saying "the odds of a collision have increased to 1 in 320" or "they have now decreased to 1 in 1600."

THE ODDS OF IT HITTING HAVE NOT CHANGED. ONLY THE UNCERTAINTY IN THE PATH HAS CHANGED. THESE ARE NOT THE SAME THING!

Sorry, I just needed to vent.
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martinuzz

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3329 on: March 15, 2023, 03:23:30 pm »

I wonder if it's heart shaped
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