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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 289970 times)

Bralbaard

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1770 on: August 20, 2016, 05:37:50 pm »

Oh yes, 300 km/h winds, how terrible. How could we ever create something capable of withstanding and even flying in such winds?

...
Oh right.
http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747439
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Just operated a flight from HKG-ANC, 13 Dec, and off the coast of Japan, we had 270/255 knots of wind! It was great, nice smooth ride. Those winds lasted for about an hour. When we got in the NOPAC they had died down to about 120knots and as we went further east, they gradually went to 0. Abeam SYA the winds were light and variable. About 200NM out of ANC, they picked up slightly to about 280/40.

All in all, typical winds for this time of year.
Literally just a commercial airliner.

I'm not sure on what height and airpressure that airplane you mentioned encountered those winds, but definitely not at sea level, so likely at relatively low pressure.
The force the wind excerts depends on air pressure, and since air pressure on venus is about 93x earth's pressure, a 300 km/h wind could definitely ruin your day, or airship.

So I guess a lot would depend on what height and pressure our venusian colony would float, and if we have any data for the wind speeds at that level.  A colony higher up in the clouds would definitely be safer, but would demand better buoyancy.




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Max™

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1771 on: August 20, 2016, 05:41:09 pm »

I'd honestly design it as a set of colony ships and freighters. On arrival, the colony ships park in orbit and set up as space stations, get satellites up, and so on. The freighters, using robotic labor and a few astronauts for management and unexpected-problem solving, build the aerostats, then people get shipped from orbit. From there, more freighters can keep coming to deliver more aerostat parts, and presumably somebody can set up a cycler shuttle or the like to get a stream of new personnel.
You're overengineering the wrong parts.

Sling the aerostats from wherever they are being built, with ablative protection, and inherent buoyancy. If you had an engineering flaw, well, that one will generally display said faults before anybody even arrives to do a preliminary check, but you can still have them set up so if they fail the spare parts are recoverable and usable. Chuck fabs into place, do all of this and have it getting set up remotely before we even get there. We're good at telemetry and such, getting better at telepresence every day, make sure the habs work and are safe before you even set out. As long as it works initially there isn't really a catastrophic failure condition like you have to watch for in a vacuum (or near-enough-it-may-as-well-be-vacuum, *cough*mars*cough*) and it lets us work out literally all of the problems mentioned here, and many more to boot.

Re: Bralbaard, winds at the surface are basically nil, the air is soup, it don't do much besides hold up the rest of the air. Higher up you need mixtures of O2 and lighter gases for buoyancy, but you're not going to be tethering yourself with some 50 km long cable to ride out a constant blast of 300 kph acid winds, you'd move with the atmosphere around the planet every 4 days I would imagine.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1772 on: August 20, 2016, 05:54:09 pm »

Why bother making any colonies outside Earth orbit? Because!
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1773 on: August 20, 2016, 06:18:28 pm »

The force the wind excerts depends on air pressure, and since air pressure on venus is about 93x earth's pressure, a 300 km/h wind could definitely ruin your day, or airship.

So I guess a lot would depend on what height and pressure our venusian colony would float, and if we have any data for the wind speeds at that level.  A colony higher up in the clouds would definitely be safer, but would demand better buoyancy.
The situation being discussed is of ~50km altitude, thus ~1 atmosphere and also free-floating (the right buoyancy by design) so that the winds it feels are residual differences within the 300km/h windstream, relative across the scale of the colony.

I hypothesise that this would be minimal, but advocate that we check first, and we can then likely design in modest positioning/rotation thrusters and buoyancy adjusting to smooth out any bumps in that road. Others assume it would be a deadly maelstrom within which survival is utterly unlikely.
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mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1774 on: August 20, 2016, 06:21:26 pm »

No... just expect there will be storms like everywhere else observed. Repeated stress is bad news. Even Mars colony plans are worried about it.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1775 on: August 20, 2016, 06:23:50 pm »

I don't see why Mars colony planners would be worried about it. The air pressure on Mars is too low to exert a lot of force, even during the most violent of storms.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1776 on: August 20, 2016, 06:32:33 pm »

A drip of one water drop at a time will destroy a mountain. Enough years of repeated stress can threaten an inflatable have. Just look at how worried they are about the iss structural integrity.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1777 on: August 20, 2016, 06:34:22 pm »

Yeah, but the ISS' problem is that it keeps trying to oscillate itself apart, not errant particles in LEO.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1778 on: August 20, 2016, 06:45:25 pm »

Roughly 2% of (Earthly) atmospheric pressure suggests (from a back of the envelope, probably wrong) that the velocity of martian winds needs to be root(50) times faster (approx 7x) to emulate Earth winds. ISTR that 60mph has been quotedy as the measured Vmax by one or other lander, so slightly less than 9mph in 'Earthlike' windfactor, which I think is Gentle Breeze upon the descriptive part of the Beaufort Scale.  But you get white caps on waves, with that, and it would ruffle loose membranes.

Probably nothing like The Martian's most dramatic scenes, but that's something to consider, still, and try not to design anything that would unduly suffer under such pressures.

(Ninjaed by three messages.)
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mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1779 on: August 20, 2016, 06:59:51 pm »

Yeah, but the ISS' problem is that it keeps trying to oscillate itself apart, not errant particles in LEO.

Yes it is a different small continuous problem.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1780 on: August 20, 2016, 07:08:44 pm »

It's not a problem on any timescale but geological. If a stiff breeze can wear down the Mars colony we're fucked.

And the ISS has faced imminent destruction from oscillation; it is not a small problem.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1781 on: August 20, 2016, 07:22:06 pm »

Have you ever seen a ten year old sail?
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1782 on: August 20, 2016, 07:29:07 pm »

Have you ever seen a ten year old sail?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Max™

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1783 on: August 20, 2016, 07:45:26 pm »

^badump-tish
I'm left wondering, without access to the ground and thus minerals, why bother making aerostat colonies? Surely just making some ships to orbit Venus would be better?
Vacuum is harder to deal with than 0.5~1 bar of pressure, and you could do things like grow aerial trees to get building material, wood is just CO2+water+sunlight after all.
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mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #1784 on: August 20, 2016, 07:52:15 pm »

Have you ever seen a ten year old sail?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

That is a racing sail for an opti. I used to sail those. The top racers would change their sails every year.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
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