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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 289953 times)

inteuniso

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #840 on: May 04, 2015, 06:26:54 pm »



EDIT: I thought it belonged here
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Zrk2

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #841 on: May 04, 2015, 07:13:27 pm »

What is that?
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Morrigi

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #842 on: May 04, 2015, 08:41:30 pm »

What is that?
Something rather silly.
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Zrk2

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #843 on: May 05, 2015, 07:00:32 pm »

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He's just keeping up with the Cardassians.

Levi

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #844 on: May 06, 2015, 11:38:19 pm »

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Gentlefish

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #845 on: May 13, 2015, 08:46:51 pm »

I like that. A thing to keep in mind, too, is that if you were to observe the sun from 4 billion lightyears away, there would hardly be an earth. You'd have to get with in a few hundred million lightyears to even find any signs of life here, and we've only been here for 2,000 lightyears' worth of time-distance. We're seeing all those planets from hundreds of millions to billions of lightyears away. That's a lot of time for a civilization to grow, fall, grow again, fall again, and so on until it escapes the star or the star explodes.

Hundred of billions of times throughout the distance of the galaxy.

i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #846 on: May 13, 2015, 09:27:34 pm »

A snazzy video, and I like it's ending message. That said there are a few things I'd like to note about the Fermi Paradox/Drake Equation that they kinda skipped over:

1) People at this point tend to vastly overestimate our detection capabilities. Currently pretty much all we have determined is that there is nobody out there beaming great focused radio waves in one particular band near the hydrogen emission line directly at us. Beyond that we don't really know much. We certainly couldn't have detected anything like our civilization, even when it was broadcasting the absolute largest amount it ever did into space, beyond a distance of a few light years. The nearest habitable exoplanets we've discovered tend to be a few dozen light years away.

2) As we've developed we've drastically cut down on one of the numbers that originally was supposed to be quite high; the length that a civilization is broadcasting detectable transmissions into space. Now this is purely for economic reasons, after all, the aliens on any nearby planets are obviously not paying for the snazzy advertising you are using to pay for your great big and expensive transmitter. If they aren't paying for it, then economics dictates that you should stop broadcasting that strongly, which leads to a self reinforcing loop where we learn to hide our signals really quickly, not because we don't want to talk, but because there's no point in wasting money broadcasting to empty space. With the way technology is developing we might be looking at a "detectable for X years" value more in the range of a few hundred years, quite a bit less than the few thousand or hundred thousand years hypothesized previously. As such, it's totally possible that there are several civilizations out there, but that we just haven't heard from each other because economics demands that we confine all of our transmissions to the only people we know to exist; ourselves (and thus prevent ourselves from discovering anybody else). This kicks in even more seriously with type II civilizations, where they get so good at harnessing energy that it's possible we couldn't even see them; anywhere they lived would look just like any other dark patch of sky.

3) Right now there is such a huge anthropomorphic bias to the questions of "how many planets that could support life actually do" and "how many planets that do support life develop intelligent life" to basically render any sort of estimates useless. People have estimated values all of the way from ~1, where every planet that could support life has intelligent life, to ~0, where we are probably the only intelligent life in our entire galaxy. It's like trying to hypothesize what the land around you looks like from looking at 1 grain of sand. If everything nearby is more identical grains you might be on a beach, or maybe you are vastly different and you are a grain carried by the wind up into the trees, or maybe you are just a bit of a sandy patch mixed into the dirt beneath a mountain, or you might even be a single lonely grain resting on an asteroid in space; it's impossible to tell.

til it escapes the star or the star explodes.
With advanced enough technology you could also hypothetically siphon out the built-up helium and replace it with harvested hydrogen, essentially allowing your Sun to keep burning for as long as you had access to the required amounts of hydrogen (or the energy needed to fission the siphoned helium back down to hydrogen).
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alway

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #847 on: May 13, 2015, 09:53:49 pm »

I like that. A thing to keep in mind, too, is that if you were to observe the sun from 4 billion lightyears away, there would hardly be an earth. You'd have to get with in a few hundred million lightyears to even find any signs of life here, and we've only been here for 2,000 lightyears' worth of time-distance. We're seeing all those planets from hundreds of millions to billions of lightyears away. That's a lot of time for a civilization to grow, fall, grow again, fall again, and so on until it escapes the star or the star explodes.

Hundred of billions of times throughout the distance of the galaxy.
The problem is though, that's a huge amount of time. In a mere few thousand years, we went from building mud huts to building spacecraft. In a mere few decades, we went from mechanical computers to devices so capable and widespread that we now have raw computing power exceeding that of a human brain. A civilization like ours, left unchecked for a mere millenia? It would likely be solar-system spanning.

But what about 100 times that? A mere 100,000 years; if our civilization were to continue for such a length, we would have complete control over our solar system through sheer economics, even if intellectual progress halted at exactly where it is today. If technological progress were to continue as it is today? I would expect nothing less than widespread colonization of our corner of the galaxy.

But what about 100 times that? A mere 10 million years. Even if we presume FTL travel is utterly impossible (which it seems it could be from where we now stand), that's plenty of time for a spacefaring civilization to cross from one side of the galaxy to the other. By that point, colonization could well be commonplace enough to continue onwards at a significant portion of the speed of light, seeding worlds with the technology and lifeforms required in an automated process of expansion, driven by small autonomous craft optimized to perfection over thousands of generations.

And yet, that's a mere 10 million years. There have been around 1380 such time periods since the beginning of our universe. Many of those were largely uninhabitable towards the beginning, as the prerequisite materials for life (as we know it) weren't available. But even if we narrow it down to the formation of our solar system, that still leaves 460 such time periods, after which we can be absolutely sure the prerequisite materials for life were around. This means that, even given a mere 0.25% head start on us, one would expect not just to see life on another planet, but signs of life on effectively every planet. This, of course, is only one possible mode of civilization; there are many other potentials, but there are enough possibilities similar to this that it would be really frickin weird if we don't exist in a veritable sea of interstellar life.

Of course, it may still be that we do. By the end of such a 10 million year period for such a civilization, they would look radically different from what we would call life; or what we would look for when looking for life. It may look like this: http://news.discovery.com/space/galaxies/mysterious-cold-spot-fingerprint-of-largest-structure-in-the-universe-150420.htm
It may look like engineered lifeforms which survive in an environment without altering it in any way visible from space, or anywhere in between. The only thing we can be fairly certain of is that it won't be any form of life that looks anything like humanity's present.

As for roy's point 3, that becomes more and more like grasping at straws given recent information. Nearly everything we learn about the universe and life is drastically improving the odds of most of the steps. Life is apparently relatively easy to build, all things considered, and there isn't anything that particularly sticks out as being hard to go from life to intelligent life aside from the transition from cellular to fully multicellular, which apparently took a while on Earth. After intelligence, civilization seems quite likely, as you are likely to have a succession of intelligent species capable of it due both to evolutionary relationships and the apparent rise of intelligence in close proximity to other intelligent life forms. All in all, there isn't really anything that stands out as particularly challenging given trillions of planets and 5-10 billion years. By all estimates, from astronomy, chemistry, biology, etc, there isn't any particularly good reason why intelligent civilizations would be rare.
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #848 on: May 13, 2015, 10:07:38 pm »

As for roy's point 3, that becomes more and more like grasping at straws given recent information...
Yeah, and personally I'd love for life to be common. My point is mainly the fact that right now we are essentially trying to guess at an entire trend line from a single point of data. We still haven't exactly figured out all the things required to get the whole evolution process going from raw chemicals (though we're getting closer, and there's plenty of top scientists working on different ideas as we speak), so it's mainly just me saying "at this point we don't have enough info to make a solid estimate, or even a wild one". There are scientists out there that have placed the values low enough that we are probably the only ones in our galaxy, and there are others who have said we should be one species out of billions, and both of them know plenty more than I ever will. :P
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It would be brutally difficult and probably won't work. In other words, it's absolutely dwarven!
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A fun zombie survival rougelike that I'm dev-ing for.

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #849 on: May 13, 2015, 10:08:56 pm »

raw computing power exceeding that of a human brain.
I find it funny that that seems like an amazing accomplishment. I find it more amazing that a single human brain could hold (nearly) all the data in the world.  :P
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #850 on: May 13, 2015, 10:18:13 pm »

raw computing power exceeding that of a human brain.
I find it funny that that seems like an amazing accomplishment. I find it more amazing that a single human brain could hold (nearly) all the data in the world.  :P
Not quite. A single human brain could perform as many individual nerve firings as the number of computer operations as of 4 years ago, so a fair bit less than the amount now. To match our storage capacity then we would need to overwrite all of the DNA in your body (last line of the article).
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It would be brutally difficult and probably won't work. In other words, it's absolutely dwarven!
Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead - A fun zombie survival rougelike that I'm dev-ing for.

origamiscienceguy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #851 on: May 13, 2015, 10:25:40 pm »

raw computing power exceeding that of a human brain.
I find it funny that that seems like an amazing accomplishment. I find it more amazing that a single human brain could hold (nearly) all the data in the world.  :P
Not quite. A single human brain could perform as many individual nerve firings as the number of computer operations as of 4 years ago, so a fair bit less than the amount now. To match our storage capacity then we would need to overwrite all of the DNA in your body (last line of the article).
still pretty cool though.
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"'...It represents the world. They [the dwarves] plan to destroy it.' 'WITH SOAP?!'" -legend of zoro (with some strange interperetation)

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #852 on: May 29, 2015, 01:06:27 pm »

It's the one-year anniversary of this interesting event in space-science.  (Ok, so it isn't currently active, but it was definitely a landmark achievement, so I thought it worth knowing about.  If you didn't already.)
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nogoodnames

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #853 on: June 11, 2015, 01:05:04 am »

http://www.nasa.gov/press-release/nasa-administrator-statement-on-senate-appropriations-subcommittee-vote-on-commercial

Depressing news, It seems that the Commercial Crew Program budget was slashed. I don't know any details and a quick search only yields other places quoting the statement, but it sounds pretty bad. I wonder what this means for SpaceX and the other CCP companies.
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mainiac

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #854 on: June 12, 2015, 08:27:12 am »



Really good book, you should read it and be excited for the movie.
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