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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 335411 times)

10ebbor10

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #675 on: January 24, 2015, 05:26:11 pm »

Or from a less daily-mail style source: http://www.space.com/28339-gamma-ray-signals-beyond-milky-way.html
Are you certain that this is the same thing? RT talks about radiowaves, your article is gamms rays.
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alway

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #676 on: January 24, 2015, 06:37:28 pm »

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LordBaal

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #677 on: January 25, 2015, 03:59:27 am »

I think it could be a pulsar or a really, really huge explosion. The birth of a galaxy center black hole?
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I'm curious as to how a tank would evolve. Would it climb out of the primordial ooze wiggling it's track-nubs, feeding on smaller jeeps before crawling onto the shore having evolved proper treds?
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Rez

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #678 on: January 30, 2015, 04:06:05 pm »

Space battles?  What would (hopefully not will <_<) they be like ?

It seems to me that the physical constraints on both weapons and platforms means that lasers, kinetics, and guided munitions will all be important.

I think lasers will be the 'battleship' and installation primary weapons.  To achieve large ranges, you need very large focusing systems.  Waste heat is a concern here.  Really great for damaging or disabling sensors.

Kinetics will range the gamut from 'sniping' weapons to CIWS miniguns.  They can be used out of LoS.  There are a variety of ways for them to cause destruction.  Waste heat is a concern here as well.

Guided munitions can do a number of things the other two can't.  They don't require LoS and can be course correct or evade fire.  When I say guided munitions, I include the idea of semi or fully autonomous drones, which could host other weapons.  Drones could sit dormant and cold until they reach the appropriate orientation to a target in orbit before activating and deploying weapons.  Orbital minefields could restrict potential paths to hostile ships.  The most important advantage of these?  They're disposable and unmanned.  You can play decoy with them or use them to test a weapons platform.

This blog has tons of napkin theory on it: http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2009/08/space-warfare-v-laser-weapons.html
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #679 on: January 30, 2015, 04:17:01 pm »

You don't really need large focusing systems for long-range laser weapons, just lots of power.  While drones (caveat: not talking about the potential for recon uses) and autonomous weapons are useful for fixed point defense, they become nearly useless in dynamic battles, where individual vessels will need extremely large volumes of space to effectively defend themselves.  Mines again are fine for fixed point, but become pretty worthless when you get to light seconds of engagement range,  you cannot reasonably expect to deny adequately large areas to either side.  Pure guided missiles become a really stupid investure of resources at this point, with the required numbers to overwhelm enemy defenses (or saturating a large enough volume of space to be useful) soaring to astronomical numbers very rapidly, and the cost of fielding such large numbers becoming equally huge.
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Rez

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #680 on: January 30, 2015, 04:21:37 pm »

How do you figure focusing systems don't matter?
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #681 on: January 30, 2015, 04:23:53 pm »

I didn't say they don't matter, I said they don't need to be huge, a small aperture with several terawatts of power behind it will cut just as effectively as a larger one with similar power (tho' over a proportionally smaller area).
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

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Rez

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #682 on: January 30, 2015, 04:38:08 pm »

Lasers diffuse and a laser will hit a larger area with a smaller focusing system.

Are you thinking far future?  You need the nuclear reactors from over 900 Nimitz carriers to generate 1 TW. 
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #683 on: January 30, 2015, 04:51:02 pm »

'Lasers diffuse'  In what medium?  Space is nearly a hard vacuum, with only a few dozen atoms of material between the aperture and the target.  A team of students from the Colorado School of Mines used a pen-laser to get measurements from the surface of the moon in the early two-thousands, and they were within millimeters of true according to the NASA set of measurements.  As for power production, yes, we have to think future tech; probably fusion-based reactors for any meaningful type of sustained space combat (or vast capacitors).  Space combat is very unlikely to be a thing in the next fifty-sixty years but around 2100 the world will likely be hitting that point.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.

Radio Controlled

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #684 on: January 30, 2015, 06:09:35 pm »

Spess lazors:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

From here: http://www.rocketpunk-manifesto.com/2009/08/space-warfare-v-laser-weapons.html
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #685 on: January 30, 2015, 06:27:05 pm »

There is more than one way to focus a laser.  Refraction laser focusing arrays are only one of several methods used to create cutting lasers, and they are not even the most popular.  There is no reason to try to restrict a space based laser weapon to one method of discharge.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 06:29:45 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

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Rez

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #686 on: January 30, 2015, 07:49:58 pm »

It's not about how the beam is focused or the intervening material between source and target.  Radio Controlled quoted it for pete sake.  It's a property of radiation.  You don't get around it.
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alexandertnt

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #687 on: January 30, 2015, 08:06:45 pm »

It seems that laser weapons could be defended against somewhat, just by covering the target ship in a material that reflects the wavelength of the laser. It couldn't function as a perfect mirror obviously, but it could be enough to require the firing laser to be several times more powerful than it originally needed to be.

Also, if the target is at extreme distances (to the point where what you are seeing is actually some time in the past), and moving erratically, it might be very difficult to hit, as you don't know where the target will be in the future (you end up with the same problem ballistic weapons have at that point). If your laser was powerful enough to incinerate the target virtually instantly, then you could slowly shoot a circle around your target, or some other aiming tactic like that. But I don't know how likely that would be as lasers that are required to maintain focus for longer would use a tonn less energy, and be a tonn more practicle/more managable than such a high powered laser.

Plus, it seems conventional weapons would probably still be more effective and economical here. A space-missile would only have to match the velocity and directional vector of the target (adjusting as the target's velocity/direction changed) and drift towards the target under intertia. Not the fastest way of dealing with a target, but probably easier to widely deploy.

I don't see space being primary focus in millitary combat. Navies exist because the ocean is often necessary to cross to get to another country, but space is unnecessary (and far more complicated to use) to get to another country. Air is generally used to get a stragical advantage on the ground, or to prevent th enemy from getting one, or for specialist operations like recon, and dropping soldiers/supplies to difficult to access places. Of course, in 100 years technology will improve and it will be more economical to get into space, but then again so will sea and air technologies improve.

There will certainly be use for it, mind you. Orbiting platforms of nuclear weapons (mostly for threatening other countries from above), sensors and recon (what I think the biggest use for space would be), possibly missile defences, possibly as a method of extremely fast insertion for specialist soldiers, etc.

Also keep in mind the problem with space debres, at least around the Earth. It's already getting cluttered out there (and needs to be tracked), and thats with our very rare and inefficient primitive rockets. Imagine all the extra crap from lots and lots of drones blowing each other up and exploding sattelites.
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This is when I imagine the hilarity which may happen if certain things are glichy. Such as targeting your own body parts to eat.

You eat your own head
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Nick K

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #688 on: January 30, 2015, 08:49:22 pm »

Oops, I answered the peeves thread instead of here.. anyway, this site http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacegunconvent.php has a ton of info on the actual science behind space warfare. They seem to feel that missiles are a plausible option. Most of the science is beyond me so I won't comment further, but if the topic interests you then the site is worth a read.

Incidentally, things they claim do not make sense in space war include:
Fighters ("looking from a cost/benefit analysis, space fighter craft do not make any sense")
Plasma weapons ("Their main draw-back is that they won't work")
Stealth ("The only way ya gonna get anything close is by a strategically worthless "hiding behind a planet" maneuver, a Harry Potter cloak of invisibility large enough to cover an entire spacecraft, or something equally stupid.")

So, lots of stuff to get peeved about in almost any sci-fi game ever made if realism is a concern there :P
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #689 on: January 30, 2015, 09:35:02 pm »

Re: Rez and Radio Controlled.  That article has no references, no peer review, and without them, no validity.  Do not attempt to use a 'freelance writer' as a source in a discussion regarding hard fact, so I'm going to NASA.  Point 1:  Diffraction is by no means a property of radiation, it is a property of medium and the reflector, improving either the 'purity' of the medium or the 'perfection' of the reflector will decrease loss.  Point 2:  Right now small aperture lasers can maintain tight coherency over a range of some millions of miles.  I just verified these points with this helpful article .  http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=19880014441

Nick K: Interesting site, with at least some documentation, I'm going to peruse that for a while.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2015, 09:38:52 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

NullForceOmega is an immortal neanderthal who has been an amnesiac for the past 5000 years.
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