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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 335496 times)

Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #525 on: January 11, 2015, 11:10:05 am »

Dropped in the middle of a big city and your take out quite a bit of it plus you just have the. The problem of a giant hole in the city and a 90 ton tungsten rod
Depends. Chances are a significant part of the energy is lost penetrating into the ground/evaporating the rod, making the blast less effective.
Wouldn't the impact itself shake the earth?
I mean this is a 90 ton rod impacting with 1/10 the force of a Fat man 
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #526 on: January 11, 2015, 11:30:32 am »

Looking at it further...

In the case of the system mentioned in the 2003 Air Force report above, a 6.1 m × 0.3 m tungsten cylinder impacting at Mach 10 has a kinetic energy equivalent to approximately 11.5 tons of TNT (or 7.2 tons of dynamite). The mass of such a cylinder is itself greater than 9 tons,


So such a weapon would not only be vastly more expensive, it would be less powerful than the same weight of explosives!

Quote from: From reddit, take with salt:
And it's super expensive. I ran the math on this- the cost of 1 tungsten rod and the mass to get it to orbit- not counting the platform to launch it, would cost as much as 10 kilotons (roughly) of GPS-guided JDAM bombs. Thor, by the way, has optimally around 60 tons of TNT equivalent, if I remember.
COURTESY EDIT- Seems I mis-remembered my figures. Assuming $10,000 dollars per JDAM for delivery and pound-for-pound blast equivalence with TNT (Which is not true, I just couldn't find figures, it's probably a lot higher), you could fire off 800 JDAMs for a total of 363 tons of TNT. Thirty times as much as the 10 tons of the Thor, and that's a really conservative estimate.
*If anybody can find me figures for the total cost of a JDAM, including fuel used to transport and deliver the munition, and also the power of the explosive in the JDAM compared to TNT so I can make these figures really accurate, I'd be most appreciative.

That reddit quote is about Project Thor, the US investigation into orbital rod weaponry. You don't realise quite how it seems to lack bang for it's buck: not only is it a lot weaker than you believe, cry, it's monstrously expensive and completely impractical. You don't realise the difficulty of maintaining things in space.

It's not even something you can hide, either: people notice rocket launches. Especially the many, many multiple launches it would take to set up the satellite network to be reliably able to hit targets with the weapon.

It's be easier, cheaper, and more effective to develop ICBMs and use those.
Dropped in the middle of a big city and your take out quite a bit of it plus you just have the. The problem of a giant hole in the city and a 90 ton tungsten rod

It's seeming quite likely you wouldn't even have the giant hole. You'd have a hole, sure, but for the same cost you could have levelled more of the city with bombs.

You think the explosions of a lot of bombs wouldn't shake the earth? It's all about the yield, and the rod just doesn't match up with conventional explosives.

No he said it wasn't a city destroyed


We already established it's not cost effective at all

In that case you just increase the mass until you get destruction needed.

A higher mass exponentially increases the cost involved, due to the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation. Then it'd become even less cost effective the bigger you make it. Getting things into space - to stay - isn't easy.

EDIT: Woops, wrong rocket equation
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 12:05:37 pm by GiglameshDespair »
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #527 on: January 11, 2015, 11:42:24 am »

Ok I get it it's not reasonable
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Radio Controlled

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #528 on: January 11, 2015, 11:52:54 am »

Quote
A higher mass exponentially increases the cost involved, due to the Tsiolkovsky rocket equation. Then it'd become even less cost effective the bigger you make it. Getting things into space - to stay - isn't easy.

I know, that's the point. If the discussion is about cost-effectiveness, then other options are better. If the discussion is about how destructive it could be, you increase the mass until desired outcome.
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Sheb

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #529 on: January 11, 2015, 11:56:54 am »

Why does higher mass mean exponentially higher cost? Can't you just ship it in parts and assemble it in orbit?
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TheDarkStar

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #530 on: January 11, 2015, 12:00:42 pm »

What if you increase the velocity instead of the mass? Kinetic energy is (1/2)mv2, so increasing impact velocity can substantially increase damage.

Edit: The mass causes exponentially higher cost because of this:

dV = g0Ispln(mass before burning fuel / mass after burning fuel)

dV is the change in velocity (7km/s is needed for Earth orbit iirc), g0 is the force of gravity or 9.81 m/s2, Isp is a measure of efficiency measured in seconds, and ln means natural log. The exponential thing comes from the natural log - the inverse is the ex function.
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Sheb

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #531 on: January 11, 2015, 12:02:05 pm »

Well, then you'd need to accelerate the thing, the concept is to let it fall.

And I get you point, but you could just send two rockets and assemble the stuff in space.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #532 on: January 11, 2015, 12:04:16 pm »

If you decelerate it from a higher orbit, it ends up faster and takes less energy to slow down enough to reenter.
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #533 on: January 11, 2015, 12:24:38 pm »

Whatever you do, space is so expensive I find it hard to believe you could ever make it worth it for weaponry.

Unless you had a railgun on the moon or something, but that'd be repurposed mining/launch equipment, not a dedicated weapon.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #534 on: January 11, 2015, 12:34:39 pm »

Can we talk about moon pools?
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #535 on: January 11, 2015, 12:42:11 pm »

Sorry, totally impractical.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #536 on: January 11, 2015, 12:46:49 pm »

What are moon pools?
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Arx

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #537 on: January 11, 2015, 12:47:57 pm »

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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #538 on: January 11, 2015, 12:57:56 pm »

I approve
Also thanks, I didn't know that updated again
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i2amroy

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #539 on: January 11, 2015, 09:49:46 pm »

A moon pool would be epic, but I think it's kinda the thing that would need to wait for both the common man having access to the moon and an eccentric billionaire before it ever got done. Water is heavy after all.
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