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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 367480 times)

GiglameshDespair

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #510 on: January 11, 2015, 08:47:43 am »

They aren't illegal.
They are tungsten rods with no explosives or anything.
They are entirly legal and follow those Cold War weapons agreements

I stated they are not illegal, as weapons of mass destruction are. But they do't actually serve much purpose, in truth. Conventional weapons are not illegal in space. Nuclear weapons are. However, if orbital bombardment weapons were to be developed, they would probably be made illegal in short order.

Check the wiki
And about anything else
Most things say you just have to drop it and it's good, or drop it with little effort
And ya it'll take a lot of energy to get it up there but it's just as effective as a tactical nuke and much less nuclear aftermathy
I would much rather kinetic bombardment be the weapon of world war three rather than nukes, much less if any fallout at all.

Unless you want it to drop several months later, you need something to push it out of orbit. It won't simply drop to Earth for the same reasons satellites don't need to be constantly firing thrusters. (Most satellites need to 'top up' their orbits every now and again because of drag from the very top reaches of Earth's atmosphere slows them down, I believe.) But you need something to push you out of orbit if you want to hit the ground any time soon. And satellites travel fast. That's a lot of momentum, especially for a big block of heavy metal.

In truth, a conventional bomb of the same size and weight as the tungsten rod would be just as effective. It would also not have the ridiculously huge cost of actually getting the bombardment satellite and it's ammunition into orbit in the first place.

It has a few advantages, compared to an ICBM, true, but it also has disadvantages. it would hit quicker than an ICBM, and so be harder to detect and intercept with anti-missile weaponry.

It does, however, have significant disadvantages, and these are no doubt why it has never passed the theoretical stage.
a) Huge cost - it costs one hell of a lot to get anything into space, never mind literally blocks of heavy metal.
b) The weapon is blind during reentry - a plasma sheath would efectively render it unable to track mobile targets, unlike an ICBM
c) A satellite can't dodge - if the satellite was discovered before it could launch it's rods, it could be destroyed easily. Satellites being destroyed is bad for everyone due to aforementioned Kessler Syndrome. We can already track tiny bits of debris in orbit - a weapons satellite would certainly be watched by every nation that had a telescope to put together.
d) The satellite has to pass over the target - there's a limited amount of places a satellite can cover at once. A rod has a fairly narrow area of effect - you couldn't, in fact, level "any city you wanted in fifteen minutes no matter what".
e) It'd probably be considered a war crime - it might not use nuclear materials, but neither does gas. If it was as powerful as you say, it effectively couldn't be used for the same reason nuclear weapons aren't. When you destroy a city, people tend to get upset. There's not enough precision in it to use it without civilian casualties that would probably be seen as unacceptable. There's civilian casualties, and then there's an entire city worth of people all at once. One is considered more acceptable than the other.

Modern warfare is about mobility.  The entire British nuclear arsenal is on submarines currently... somewhere. So if you destroyed, say, Birmingham with one of these rods - you could probably expect a nuke in short order.

Wars aren't done between developed nation states anymore. MAD is still good and strong. It's why Russia could invade Ukraine - Ukraine gave it's nukes back to Russia when it became a sovereign nation in return for an agreement of protection by Russia, UK and USA. It ended up rather poorly for them, but if they'd kept their nukes it never would have happened.

Similarly, wars against insurgents require more precision. Precision can be easily delivered with aircraft munitions and cruise missiles for a fraction of the cost of an orbital bombardment weapon.


Much like mechs, a cool concept, but there's a reason why they aren't a thing.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #511 on: January 11, 2015, 09:07:36 am »

Quote from: Outer Space treaty, Article 4
States Parties to the Treaty undertake not to place in orbit around the Earth any
objects carrying nuclear weapons or any other kinds of weapons of mass
destruction, install such weapons on celestial bodies, or station such weapons in
outer space in any other manner.
Any Weapon of Mass destruction is illegal.

However a kinetic rod wouldn't be destructive enough to qualify as a weapon of mass destruction. A 10 ton rod at mach 10 would have an explosive yield about equal to it's weight in TNT, so it's certainly isn't going to wipe cities of the map.

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Sheb

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #512 on: January 11, 2015, 09:37:04 am »

Okay, so let's take a 10m-long, 30-cm wide solid tungsten rod.

According to Wolfram Alpha, it would have weight of 90 tons.

Now, using this terminal velocity calculator, I get a terminal velocity of 7478 m/s. That's an energy of 1.2 kilotons of TNT, or a tenth of the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima.

Now, SpaceX ask for something like 4000$ per kg. So you'd need 360 millions dollars of launch cost. Add in the price of the weapon itself, and you get a best case of 400 millions $ (The tungsten itself would already cost 4 millions).

You could probably just buy the city you want to attack for that kind of money.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #513 on: January 11, 2015, 09:53:03 am »

Note that due to the characteristics of the weapon, most of the damage will be highly localized. Won't make a big blast.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #514 on: January 11, 2015, 10:51:43 am »

I'm just clearifying I don't really support big weapons of war but if I did it would be this
Also with the strike anywhere in 15 minutes that was if you had the proper number of satellites, if you had just the one you wouldn't be able to strike anywhere.
The rods can be moved after dropped they are supposed to have a guidance computer but as you said the plasma sheath would make that ineffective after a point.
No this is not a really reasonable weapon I just thought it was a fun one, yes like the mechs.

And if Sheb is correct that's actualy pretty cheap as city destroyers go
If it's only $400 million per rod to get into space that's probably a lot cheaper than nukes.
But ya they aren't all that great anyways
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Sheb

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #515 on: January 11, 2015, 10:53:45 am »

Well, that's the minimal possible cost. Not including maintenance. You'd probably be looking at over a billion a piece, for stuff that isn't that practical. Nukes are definitely cheaper than that.
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #516 on: January 11, 2015, 10:56:09 am »

I dunno developing the things isn't cheap.
Let's say some random fairly whealthy country wanted one of the two, it would probably be cheaper for orbital bombardment than developing a nuke and hiding it from everyone
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #517 on: January 11, 2015, 11:00:42 am »

Cry, unless you can post some numbers, arguing by gut feeling isn't very convincing. Developing a space program also ain't cheap.
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Sheb

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #518 on: January 11, 2015, 11:01:10 am »

Also, we're not talking city destroyer. My rod would have a tenth of the yield of the Hiroshima bomb..
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #519 on: January 11, 2015, 11:02:05 am »

Also, we're not talking city destroyer. My rod would have a tenth of the yield of the Hiroshima bomb..

Must... Quote... Out of context...
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Cryxis, Prince of Doom

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #520 on: January 11, 2015, 11:02:37 am »

Dropped in the middle of a big city and your take out quite a bit of it plus you just have the. The problem of a giant hole in the city and a 90 ton tungsten rod
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #521 on: January 11, 2015, 11:07:24 am »

Dropped in the middle of a big city and your take out quite a bit of it plus you just have the. The problem of a giant hole in the city and a 90 ton tungsten rod

Nobody is saying it couldn't be devastating. The question was wether it's a cost-effective option.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #522 on: January 11, 2015, 11:08:08 am »

No he said it wasn't a city destroyed


We already established it's not cost effective at all
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10ebbor10

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #523 on: January 11, 2015, 11:08:20 am »

Dropped in the middle of a big city and your take out quite a bit of it plus you just have the. The problem of a giant hole in the city and a 90 ton tungsten rod
Depends. Chances are a significant part of the energy is lost penetrating into the ground/evaporating the rod, making the blast less effective.
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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #524 on: January 11, 2015, 11:08:53 am »

No he said it wasn't a city destroyed


We already established it's not cost effective at all

In that case you just increase the mass until you get destruction needed.
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