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Author Topic: Space Thread  (Read 366359 times)

jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3390 on: May 24, 2023, 07:12:17 pm »

Yes, but USA have funded both AR1 and BE-4 engine as replacement for RD-180 close to a decade ago.

Is something gone wrong with that investment? And or what does Arroway engine brings to the table?

Alternatively could the statement about removing dependence on foreign propulsion refer to the Draper engine? What did the USA used so far in this role? Or what else can this engine be used for? (that might be relevant in say.. any logistical issues related to Ukraine war)
« Last Edit: May 24, 2023, 08:47:39 pm by jipehog »
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3391 on: May 26, 2023, 01:44:31 pm »

Japanese Moon Lander Crashed Because of a Software Glitch
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/26/science/moon-crash-japan-ispace.html
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3392 on: May 26, 2023, 02:16:29 pm »

Japanese Moon Lander Crashed Because of a Software Glitch
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/05/26/science/moon-crash-japan-ispace.html
(I read it elsewhere, so not making effort to get beyond the NYT's RegisterWall... Presume same details, though.)

Perhaps they ought to have tried a three-method altitude mix, to resolve the 'surprise' out-of-range disagreement in a way that might not have scuppered the mission by choosing the wrong one (it turns out) of the two disagreeing measurements they did have. Lessons learnt, hopefully. Sounds like the organisation can ride over this failure and try again, having done 80% of the hard targets of the mission.

But it also has shades of the metric/imperial Mars mess-up (except that the different landing site with substantially unchanged inertial expectations probably did most to cause the unanticipated mismatch). Design/specification-glitch, like the Mariner 1 "R-bar" one, rather than a proper software-glitch.
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Culise

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3393 on: May 26, 2023, 05:24:09 pm »

Yes, but USA have funded both AR1 and BE-4 engine as replacement for RD-180 close to a decade ago.

Is something gone wrong with that investment? And or what does Arroway engine brings to the table?

Alternatively could the statement about removing dependence on foreign propulsion refer to the Draper engine? What did the USA used so far in this role? Or what else can this engine be used for? (that might be relevant in say.. any logistical issues related to Ukraine war)
Nothing's gone wrong with either, per se. The BE-4 is being used on the Vulcan Centuar (2 engines, first stage), and construction of the test vehicle is complete.  The first static test was just called off earlier today due to a response delay from the engine ignitors, but these kinds of hiccups are not unexpected.  The AR1 is functional from what I've heard, but suffers from being a product in want of buyers; they lost the bid on the Vulcan Centaur, and while there was talk of Firefly adopting the engine for their next rocket (MLV, nee Beta), the company since went with their own in-house Miranda.  As far as Ursa Major is concerned, presumably, the problem is that these engines were not made by Ursa Major and are not putting money in Ursa Major's pocket.  That to them is the major benefit of the Arroway, a new entry for a competitive market.  As far as the USAF is concerned, likewise: it's a sweetheart deal that the USAF can later hope to take advantage of.  They've wanted for a while to develop rapid space launch capability to go from order to launch in 24 hours, and having an engine developed with their money is likely something they would be interested in to have an "in" for follow-up contracts if it is successful.

As far as US hypersonic missiles are concerned, there aren't any right now; everything still in development or testing.  For the USAF specifically, they declined procurement of Lockheed's AGM-183A in March due to regular ignition failures and cost overruns, and also awarded a bit shy of a billion USD to Raytheon for a new hypersonic missile, which is still in testing.  Likewise for the Army's and Navy's hypersonic missile project (LRHW for the Army and CPS for the Navy), which is a completely separate project and is being tested this year.  As LeMay once put it, the Soviets are the adversary and the Navy (or Army) is the enemy.  Service rivalry aside, the USAF wants an air-launched missile for obvious reasons; the Army wants ground-launch and Navy wants ship-launch capabilities for similar reasons.  Presumably, besides the usual pork-barreling, this is also being justified as a way to avoid putting all eggs in a single basket.  If the only remaining hypersonics project the USAF is pursuing fails as the AGM-183A just did, they would be left to start from beginning. 

Ultimately, though, space launches are now a part of the private sector.  The existence of the Arroway, Miranda, or Merlin don't imply something is wrong with the AR1 or BE-4, any more than the existence of Pepsi suggests something wrong with Coca-Cola.  It's a brave new world, that has such corporations in it.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2023, 05:30:22 pm by Culise »
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3394 on: May 30, 2023, 08:21:11 am »

I had a soft-spot for the Dynetics ALPACA, but... hey. Mass problems.

China sets sights on crewed lunar landing before 2030
https://spacenews.com/china-sets-sights-on-crewed-lunar-landing-before-2030/

Looks like they also went with phallos lander design.

Is NASA still plans to land on the moon in 2024? I admit I have doubts about blue origin and starship being ready in time.
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Madman198237

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3395 on: May 30, 2023, 10:02:26 am »

I haven't heard a formal update but it's almost unthinkable yeah.
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Telgin

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3396 on: May 30, 2023, 10:37:22 am »

Have they even done transfers to the moon yet?  It seems like there are many milestones left before even thinking about landing people on the moon in a year, but maybe I just haven't been keeping up with things.
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Madman198237

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3397 on: May 30, 2023, 11:17:43 am »

Artemis I launched awhile ago and Artemis II should send people back around the Moon, no landing. I don't remember what the plan is after Artemis II, but I believe there's some lunar lander tests and then Artemis III should be an actual all-up Moon landing with crew. I think.
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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3398 on: May 30, 2023, 02:08:48 pm »

Artemis (itself delayed by Artemis I preperation delays, but mostly the pre-Artemis I issues) just isn't a complete landing program in itself, so relies on SpaceX succeeding in creating its bit for the mission (or, I'd suggest as a very stop-gappy contingency, bringing Blue Origin in to replace them). And certainly SpaceX has nailed orbital insertion of cargo, booster-landing, manned-to-orbit(-and-safely-back) and sent a Tesla far beyond the Moon, so it wasn't exactly a complete shot in the dark that they can engineer their piece of the puzzle.

But with Spaceship edit: Starship![4] not yet demonstrating itself as even getting close to the Moon, before then having to show as 'solved' the landing and then unsupported take-off again, it's probably getting finger-bitingly close to various reserve deadlines in the planners' office. (And BO hasn't even gone so far as to fail to launch its own option, for this trip.)

Artemis 2 is as proven workable as it can be, given that it's equivalent to Apollo (7?/)8, with maybe six or seven[1] successful tests up to that point (and one very notable ground-failure), to put this "new race" into perspective with the old one.

Artemis 3 is planned to be (part of) the Apollo 11-equivalent mission, conflating three stages of Apollo (with 9=undocking/redocking tests in LEO and 10=all-but-landing rehearsal). Obviously SpaceX, once it proves it can launch Starship, has its own side-program of proving a Moon-tuned Starship can do the landing (automated, as it will probably mostly be anyway), take-off (likewise) and any necessary docking tests (but with Dragon/Dragon-Crewed and the ISS already in its back pocket on that issue), so it may not need (or be seen as cost-efficient practical) to still take the original project's exact steps.

Which might mean one or two mangled (or just un-relaunchable) Lunar Starships get left on the Moon in the gaps between Artemis missions, in trying to perfect (and man-rate) the landing phase in time for 3's crew to take the plunge. But it does seems awfully close to next year, already, watching it all unfold from out here on the bleachers... (Apollo had its delays, and not just because of Grissom, et al, which shoved things back a year or two at times. And that was Space Race time with Space Race pressures.)

Apart from maybe something like Biden wanting to be sure that he was in the Whitehouse to do the famous phonecall (which is a thing his predecessor would have wanted even more[3]), I think the same haste isn't in play. It'd probably be nice for them to get back there before China (or anyone else!) reaches it for the first time, but "hope for 2026, plan for <2030" is a viable amount of slack if the budget can cover the delays at least as much as the alternative of throwing money at things to get them to happen sooner.


[1] Depending on how you count. But before Apollo 1 were three main tests for the hardware (but one not including the Apollo CSM), and after it were unmanned Apollo 4, 5*, 6 and manned 7*. Those marked * were not on Saturn Vs, but 5 was the first with the LM loaded, and 7 was the first crewed CSM flight (so, Artemis 2-like), so probably these definitely[2] count.

[2] By all other relevent measures anyway, even if they hadn't been given full Apollo numbers (even 'unused' ones). Like the various pre-1 tests weren't that I would count, as well as technical tests that I wouldn't.

[3] I'm tempted to go back into the archives and see if it was buttoned down as a schedule within his first term as something that would happen before the end of his presumed second term, so maybe pressure/hints about how nice it would be happened.

[4] I have been known to get SpaceX and Scaled Composites names mixed up! And there was a SpaceshipTwo launch the other day, so maybe that will have caused my error there. ;P
« Last Edit: May 30, 2023, 02:20:55 pm by Starver »
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Madman198237

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3399 on: May 30, 2023, 11:55:03 pm »

The National Team (Blue Origin leads this group but it also includes most of the former "usual suspects" for spaceflight operations, from before SpaceX shook things up) has in fact recently been re-selected for the backup lunar lander; there were originally going to be 2 selections and NT beat out Draper's group in the first selection round. However Congress didn't want to pay enough for even ONE lunar lander program so SpaceX's largely privately-developed Starship got slotted in as the most capable and easiest to fund option. After all, it literally requires no NASA funding for 85% of the vehicle to be developed, any NASA funds for making the lunar lander version are just a bonus to SpaceX's development of all the most important components of the vehicle. Recently the funds for a second selection were shaken out and the second selection was formally announced.

Unfortunately, Draper's much more interesting lander proposal had issues like "being 20% over the design mass limits even before leaving the drawing board" which was going to require some intensive engineering and hefty redesign or an investment in negative mass, neither one of which is conducive to a project remaining on time, within budget, and in spec.

At least the new NT proposal has ditched the nonsensical 3-part tug-descent-ascent lander setup for a single-piece reusable vehicle (and they even got rid of the 40-foot ladder required to make it to the top of their originally proposed lander).
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jipehog

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3400 on: June 20, 2023, 06:50:03 am »

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Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3401 on: June 20, 2023, 03:13:30 pm »

...it all looks like they're planning a bit of an "Asteroid-Belt And Road" th8ng. Nothing too extraordinary, in principle, but the proof of the pudding really is how many bits of the composite plan come together (and how many other plans get thought up/implemented, as well, to boost or confound the project).
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LordBaal

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3402 on: June 23, 2023, 08:10:30 am »

Yay! A few months ago Venezuela was formely invited as the first partner for the moon base. Is merely a gesture of course, well, they'll need test subjects...
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EuchreJack

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3403 on: July 21, 2023, 07:32:12 pm »

So, I was gonna boot up Kerbal Space Program and test out this whole "We can't launch satellites because we risk collision with other satellites."

I've played plenty of Kerbal Space Program, and that hardly seemed a danger.  So hey, how many satellites do I need to simulate this?

https://history-computer.com/how-many-satellites-are-in-space-right-now/#:~:text=How%20Many%20Satellites%20Are%20in%20Orbit%20Right%20Now%3F,amount%20of%20objects%20in%20orbit.

...uh, I'm reasonably sure that would crash the program.  Oh well.

Starver

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Re: Space Thread
« Reply #3404 on: July 21, 2023, 08:06:35 pm »

IIRC, you also need to be focussed (i.e. 'controlling') one space-whatever (ship/probe/ejected component) for it to consider testing for if it clips any other such thing (the exception being hitting planets/muns, where unattended stuff should still get destroyed, unless it's going so fast that it leapfrogs the 'collision-zone' entirely across simulation-ticks).

Real Life™ doesn't care about how many calculations it needs to do (if anything demands vastly more Universal Processing Unit time to do, it'll just not calculate anything until it's sorted, so the universe itself doesn't know that the universe went slow due to working out what happened when those two neutron stars collided, even, down to every subatomic particle and every relativistic differentation between every possible observers' frames of references), so things that can collide will collide, on cue. Double the objects in the system you might get roughly four times the crash-possibilities. Triple, and it's 9x, etc.

KSP (unless they've 'improved' it, since I last dabbled) is purely focussed on you. Double the objects, that means the focal one 'only' has double-ish the potential crash-partners out there, to get 9x you actually need nine times as many loose objects. Maybe they've sorted the "save from re-entry drag by switching off the stratosphere-skimming craft until it's looped back up into proper space again" cheaty-'bug, but even if you dispatched a whole host of kris-krossing orbiters around Ike, you probably still will only get the currently 'active' one to crash with any any others you had allowed to fly through the same spot at the same time by pure chance.


Although Kerbal-space was also somewhat more compressed, too. If KSP2 hasn't decided to be more realistic about that, it might yet make it somewhat easier than than it might be, to get a collision.

(Ok, so I'm not current on the game mechanics, but just thought I'd chip in anyway. Waiting to be told where I'm wrong, about at least one of the abstractions/sumultaneous-calculations.. ;) )
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