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Author Topic: Transhumanism Discussion Thread  (Read 54704 times)

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #90 on: November 06, 2013, 01:04:47 am »

Warning, non science conjecture/question:

Is it possible to keep a brain alive independently? Or with a 'skeleton crew' of essentials?

If so, I'd figure you can just shove a person's brain/organ box into any body-like thing and call it good. We are technically modular, after all.




Edit:
Oh wait.. I just realized I'd need some sort of artificial lung-having body-cube holder robot. I don't want to give up cannabis to be a humanborg.  :-\
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:08:08 am by Mictlantecuhtli »
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Max White

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #91 on: November 06, 2013, 01:06:22 am »

Do you mean with current technology? No, it is not
.
Do you mean theoretically? Sure it is! Why not?

Frumple

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #92 on: November 06, 2013, 01:08:47 am »

Conceptually, sure. Closest I can recall to experimentation along those lines was that monkey head swap... quite a few years back, now. Which went fine, iirc.

But, fundamentally, if the function is the same the function is the same regardless as to material or shape, yeah? So long as neither of the latter two are required for the former, they're not strictly relevant. If the functions for brain support can be put in a box, then... that's all there is to it.

Edit:Oh wait.. I just realized I'd need some sort of artificial lung-having body-cube holder robot. I don't want to give up cannabis to be a humanborg.  :-\
Brain in jar wouldn't need the lung support, it'd just distill the chemical part of the weed and put it in the solution or whatever.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:10:48 am by Frumple »
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misko27

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #93 on: November 06, 2013, 01:10:15 am »

PTW


For myself, as cool as all those implants and such seem (and I do enjoy cool enhancements), I'd like to remain as strictly biological as possible for a long time, at least until robotic implants don't have a significant rate of failure: At least doctors know what is going on when they open me up. At least, until life-extension becomes an option; all bets are off then as I do not want to die, especially given that I maintain the Yossarian-esque "I will live forever or die trying" attitude.


But If if ever attempt to become a politicians I will immediately face "HE IS A ROBOT KILL HIM NOW". Alternatively, that prejudice could be nullified by "HE IS A ROBOT POLITICIAN, HELL YES".
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WillowLuman

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #94 on: November 06, 2013, 01:11:35 am »

The major problem with removing the brain is that it shuts down and suffers permanent damage fairly quickly without an uninterrupted supply of oxygen. Which leaves a very small window to complete such operations.
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lemon10

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #95 on: November 06, 2013, 01:13:13 am »

Great! I'm all for the eyes thing.
You know somehow I get the feeling that if you extend the range that the eye can see, it won't give you new colors per say, just strech the spectrum a little. So you would see infra red as red, and red as a redish orange, and orange as a slightly yellowish orange, and so on.

Just my guess, being unable to imagine new colors...
I personally think that if you gave someone who already knew how to see with regular eyes would mainly see it in the old colors.
If you gave someone that hadn't, they could see new colors entirely (depending on the variance of the input of course).
Not that my opinion is really based on any solid science.
Well my gut instinct tells me churches will complain, but then things like pacemakers have been well received over all, people accepted the internet with very little resistance, and we got used to the idea of always being on camera without a second thought... In general.

There will no doubt be people who think that such modifications are immoral, but that will dwindle over time...
I think there will be some pretty huge opposition from it from religious groups and highly conservative politicians, but they won't succeed in stopping progress (because they never really do), and the opinion will quickly become a minority as we adopt the technology and it becomes more normalized. Especially when modifications come out that grant real and significant advantages to those who take them (eg. things that augment mental functions), and they have to choose to adopt them (and become smarter/faster/whatever) or get left behind.
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Frumple

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #96 on: November 06, 2013, 01:13:52 am »

The major problem with removing the brain is that it shuts down and suffers permanent damage fairly quickly without an uninterrupted supply of oxygen. Which leaves a very small window to complete such operations.
Enough of a window, though. Repeating, they managed to swap heads on a pair of primates already, quite a whiles back, without notable issue insofar as I can recall. I'd also imagine we've got ways of oxygenating an interim medium of some sort by this point, if it came to that. Whatever it'd take to keep stuff from breaking down during the operation.

E: And especially considering computer assisted surgeries are a technique that's been improving recently... the amount of window necessary is shrinking. S'not actually a meaningful issue, basically.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:17:18 am by Frumple »
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WillowLuman

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #97 on: November 06, 2013, 01:18:38 am »

That's an entire head onto another neck, which leaves the plumbing intact enough to set up dialysis. Removing the brain from the cranium is problematic, though.
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Max White

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #98 on: November 06, 2013, 01:23:42 am »

Oh wait.. I just realized I'd need some sort of artificial lung-having body-cube holder robot. I don't want to give up cannabis to be a humanborg.  :-\
If anything the ability to just put an exact dosage of the drugs that achieve the high effect into your fake blood stream would be easier and less potentially harming. I don't want to get into a debate over if cannabis is bad for you or not, but just inhaling paper smoke has some small health risks attached. Direct injection would bypass that.

That's an entire head onto another neck, which leaves the plumbing intact enough to set up dialysis. Removing the brain from the cranium is problematic, though.
Were they able to move afterwards? As in they managed to hook up the severed nerves well enough? That is very impressive.

alway

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #99 on: November 06, 2013, 01:26:10 am »

In general, this is why I strongly believe most of transhumanism will come in the form of wearable tech for the near future. People accept adding an iPad to their items in their bag. They accept a phone sitting in their pocket, easily reachable at all times. Such things are cheap, can be upgraded rapidly, are lightweight enough to carry everywhere and become ubiquitous. We already wear a great deal of clothing, giving an amazing possible space for technological enhancement of our bodies while still retaining the cheap and easily upgradable and disposable nature we value in our technology. Thus, in the near term, this is where to watch for really cool transhumanism tech. Even with the previous example of smartphones/tablets. Millions of people now carry with them everywhere devices which allow for instant communication with anyone anywhere on the planet, as well as instant access to much of the world's store in information via the internet, while also providing a means of entertainment. Without so much as noticing, the entire world gained wizard-like powers. And this will only get better.

In contrast, I feel the surgical aspect of transhumanism is currently very overplayed. Sure, it's coming, but, in general, it also isn't coming to augment us. Surgical implantation of macro-scale devices is:
1. extremely costly
2. extremely invasive
3. dangerous
4. you need to do it all over again for a simple firmware upgrade, requiring both more cost and causing a continually increasing amount of tissue damage
Which is why, in general, it is only done when an organ fails that you either can not live without (artificial heart) or you can not live anything close to a normal life without (artificial limb).  Additionally, there is very little benefit to implantation. It complicates device design to an incredible degree, due to concerns about temperature, size, ect. Basic brain data can be acquired with external sensors, with signal loss partially corrected by decent pattern recognition AI (which is why systems like the Emotiv headset has a learning period). There is only one major purpose which cannot be replicated through wearable tech: direct nervous system connection. So between all those issues, there is an immense barrier-to-entry for any sort of body-mod augmentation becoming mainstream.... For the time being.

Now here's what it will take, and what will allow it to take off in the future:
Miniaturization. Implantable augmentation tech only becomes of net benefit when it is small and non-disruptive enough to be done on an outpatient basis. An injection like you would get a shot, taken in pill form, or similar. This requires miniaturization; but of a degree which we will almost certainly see. This will result in a dramatic shift from the current major barriers to enhancement tech. Again, the major benefit of implantation, which cannot be acquired otherwise, is direct neural feedback. I suspect it would, for the most part, come earlier than most implantation tech, as we already see some signs of it in the articles I linked; particularly the artificial eye, and is already an advanced field of research. Compare that to other implantable tech, and you see a rather big divide between 'direct neural interface,' and 'magnets inserted under the skin' in terms of research and development funds and effort. I also suspect that, eventually, it may well come in the form of a more unified interface, rather that being specific to a single device/application. A sort of IO kit which wirelessly transmits to an external device (similar to other mature implantable devices, like pacemakers).
Implantable tech outside of this or medically-required devices faces a rather large hurdle. It may well overcome it, but I sincerely doubt it will overcome it on a large scale; for reasons ranging ffrom psychological to tradition and socio-economic conditions.
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smirk

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #100 on: November 06, 2013, 01:33:50 am »

That's an entire head onto another neck, which leaves the plumbing intact enough to set up dialysis. Removing the brain from the cranium is problematic, though.
Were they able to move afterwards? As in they managed to hook up the severed nerves well enough? That is very impressive.
Not so much, according to Wikipedia. Though it happened in 1970; we've come a little bit farther tech-wise since then. Following Wikipedia's sources down the rabbit hole for details.

EDIT: Ooh, lookit this:
Quote
By the time White received his doctorate in 1962, his attention had turned to animal experiments with the isolated brain. This is exactly what it sounds like; removing the brain from the skull, while maintaining its blood supply. White and his colleagues successfully kept the brain alive externally with blood diverted from another subject, and also managed to transplant it into the neck of a separate animal.
Frankenstein territory here, but apparently his work had an impact on the study of brain chemistry and physiology.

editedit:
Quote
...when cooled to between ten and fifteen degrees centigrade, the brain could be cut off from its blood supply for over an hour without suffering damage - a discovery which has obvious applications in the operating theatre: “A lot of neurosurgery now, particularly what they call vascular neurosurgery, brain surgery, is conducted at very low temperatures. We didn't know until our studies how much oxygen and how much glucose the brain consumes at 10 degrees centigrade.
From the same article. Again, 40-year-old science, so I'm not sure how accurate it is.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 01:48:11 am by smirk »
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Max White

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #101 on: November 06, 2013, 01:52:26 am »

I like this White character, something about the name appeals to me.

Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #102 on: November 06, 2013, 01:53:29 am »

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WillowLuman

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #103 on: November 06, 2013, 02:02:01 am »

The problem with connecting a brain to another nervous system is that scars don't transmit well. The technology does not currently exist to repair the spinal cord, even within one organism. To bridge the severed spines of two would require something expensive and unheard of.
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Max White

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #104 on: November 06, 2013, 02:03:43 am »

Something something stem cells, something magical something something.

See, no problem!
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