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Author Topic: Transhumanism Discussion Thread  (Read 54773 times)

WillowLuman

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #540 on: January 17, 2014, 05:07:22 pm »

If, as argued, robots will replace ALL jobs, then people won't need jobs any more. It's not humans that become obsolete, it's the system of employment. Humans don't become obsolete, ever. If you're going to argue that robots will do everything, and absolutely EVERYTHING better than humans, and thus that humans will not do those things, than why not just save ourselves some time and have everyone simultaneously commit suicide?

Because there is more to life than work.

People were talking about how robots will replace us as artists, scientists, chefs, musicians, child-rearers, and so forth.
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #541 on: January 17, 2014, 05:14:35 pm »

There is more to life than those things.

Children can enrich your life, but you don't exist to have children.
Work can improve your quality of living, but you don't live to work.
Art can improve your view of life, but you don't view your life through art.

The question of "why are we here?" Has plagued philosophers since time immemorial.

We don't exist for any particular reason. We each pick what life means for us personally.

The robots *are* created for a purpose. They are spared from feeling adrift and purposeless. They exist to service us. And to them, we exist to give them purpose.

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Levi

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #542 on: January 17, 2014, 05:14:58 pm »

Robots will replace us for anything that is boring to do.  For everything else, we'll probably just upgrade ourselves to do it.   :P

I have a hard time seeing the doomsday scenario where robots replace most of the jobs leading to most people being unemployed and poor.  I like to think society/government would adapt to such a massive change in the way things work.  We'd probably just all end up on permanent welfare, and that welfare would be mighty generous. 
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #543 on: January 17, 2014, 05:16:45 pm »

Are you arguing that all intelligence/live/whatever needs an intelligent creator?

Or just that humans are very special snowflakes?

Seen many naturally occurring robotics?
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #544 on: January 17, 2014, 05:17:32 pm »

Yes. What do you think germs are?

Ever really LOOKED at the microelectric drive system of a flagellum?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:20:11 pm by wierd »
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Mictlantecuhtli

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #545 on: January 17, 2014, 05:19:25 pm »

 ::) That's the reasoning, ey?

Electricity powers our nervous system. Are we robotic?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:23:41 pm by Mictlantecuhtli »
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #546 on: January 17, 2014, 05:26:34 pm »

It's self replicating.
Self modifying code
Natural selection removes defective individuals
Overriding purpose is to replicate

Our intelligence is merely a novel adaptation to facilitate our ability to replicate.

Humans are biological automota, who's intrinsic purpose is to replicate. Every tool, every creation we have made, every culturual construct-- is created to improve our survival, and ability to procreate.

Humans are not that special.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:29:32 pm by wierd »
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WillowLuman

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #547 on: January 17, 2014, 05:33:22 pm »

There is more to life than those things.

Children can enrich your life, but you don't exist to have children.
Work can improve your quality of living, but you don't live to work.
Art can improve your view of life, but you don't view your life through art.

The question of "why are we here?" Has plagued philosophers since time immemorial.

We don't exist for any particular reason. We each pick what life means for us personally.

The robots *are* created for a purpose. They are spared from feeling adrift and purposeless. They exist to service us. And to them, we exist to give them purpose.

Yes, but art, science, philosophy, personal relationships, and all those other things are part of our process of creating meaning. I'd like to argue that those things are *not* just other jobs that need to be automated to make our lives easier or our industries more profitable, and even if we create AI's that can do them it doesn't make humans doing them obsolete in any way.

It's self replicating.
Self modifying code
Natural selection removes defective individuals
Overriding purpose is to replicate

Our intelligence is merely a novel adaptation to facilitate our ability to replicate.

Humans are biological automota, who's intrinsic purpose is to replicate. Every tool, every creation we have made, every culturual construct-- is created to improve our survival, and ability to procreate.

Humans are not that special.
Yes, but that doesn't make organic life robots, per se. Robot doesn't mean an animate object, robot means an artificial animate object. It's artificial origin is the defining feature. Aside from that, I'd agree that there's not much difference in what life and robots are capable of, ultimately, but you can't argue that there's no difference whatsoever.
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #548 on: January 17, 2014, 05:36:20 pm »

« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:44:05 pm by wierd »
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misko27

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #549 on: January 17, 2014, 06:44:28 pm »

We have created wholly artificial germs.

*updated with linkage
For the longest time there was a link to an article on that in my browser's favorites bar. I don't know why, I don't usually favorite things.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #550 on: January 17, 2014, 07:19:34 pm »

The artificially created germs on your keyboard made it happen while you were in the bathroom.
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SalmonGod

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #551 on: January 17, 2014, 07:19:52 pm »

I don't think we'll see ultimate post-scarcity robotic economy anytime soon, and hope I never gave that impression.  I doubt it will ever reach that point.  What I do think we're already seeing is people forced out of participation in the economy as automation/productivity increases at an accelerating pace.  And I'm not worried about whether or not we'll eventually adapt.  I'm worried about how much suffering will be involved in the transition before that adaptation occurs.

Society will have to get over the idea that a job is pre-requisite to survival.  A generous welfare state will be required for civilization to remain stable and functional.  But the curve in wealth disparity is so severe that the extreme minority of wealthy elite is completely disconnected from the rest of the world.  They have zero ability to relate or incentive to care, yet their cooperation will be required for the establishment of this welfare state.  They'll have to cave eventually, but I think they will put up a hell of a fight first.  I think a significant portion of them would rather sink the whole ship than compromise.  It's going to be rough times.

Personally, I think an unprecedented cultural shift in the nature of ownership is more likely to happen before a truly acceptable welfare state emerges from the global economy, which carries non-workers on the backs of those who claim exclusive ownership of the functional components of the economic machine.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 07:33:02 pm by SalmonGod »
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #552 on: January 17, 2014, 07:25:59 pm »

I am in agreement with that pemise. I was just pointing out that the reactionary "NO! Stop making the job stealing robots and computers! HUMANS FIRST!" Movement *MUST* be stopped, or you will lock mankind away from post scarsity, and in a purpetual state of inequality between haves and have nots

I am in agreement that the bottom will fall out of capitalism long before we reach that point. That is why I mentioned employment and liquidity, and there being a tipping point where consumers will be unable to consume, and the market imploding.

We need to have a solution BEFORE the bottm drops. We cannot "react" to the dropping. We won't be able to move fast enough.  The net needs to be in place first.

Time is running out; we are seeing signs of the tipping point already.
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #553 on: January 17, 2014, 08:26:18 pm »

True true. I think when you see someone move to a new town because they can't get a job where they are, that's an example of some strange stuff going on.

In a premodern society you'd have the majority of people involved with the needs of basic survival: food-getting, shelter, defense. No specialists. A man might spend the day hunting and then spend some of the afternoon cutting wood and repairing his tools. In winter his efforts may turn to metallurgy, pouring copper into a clay crucible at the fire. Once food-getting technology improves so that you no longer need each person to be a food producer, and your population is large and stable enough that there is enough work for non-food-getters, specialists can emerge: one man spends all of his time making tools, trading them to others for food. Or spend his time making shelters and fences.

As specialists emerge their crafts become complex enough that subdivisions appear. At first the smith specializes in making swords. Then he realizes he can make high-quality blades while a less-skilled or perhaps just differently-specialized worker makes the accessories.

At some point you will spot a problem as a tool-maker; your town might already have one, and no more are needed. You need to go where there are people who want to buy your tools. This isn't going to happen until there is a high level of tool ownership or of tool production: if everyone has tools, they don't need many tool-makers, and if there are a lot of tool-makers, there will not be enough local demand to purchase all of those tools. So if a person wants to sell his labor, he needs to find a buyer of labor.

If you're in a pre-modern culture I find it hard to believe that there is such a richness in food, tools, services, that people have no further needs. Yet that's the case today: you can have a town with a dairy, for example, and the dairy has employed all of the people they need. The town store has enough staff. The sheriff has his deputy. A new person entering represents a tiny amount of each need: a need for more food from the dairy, goods from the shop, security from the sheriff. But the existing people can easily expand their production to fulfill his needs. But his labor is unneeded.

I think huge towns work the same way. It's just that there are constant vacancies, overproductions, understocking, confusion, miscommunication. You never see exactly what the whole system looks like because it's so complex. And it can absorb individuals easily as long as there isn't a large-scale shift. Such as many employers laying off workers.

You might, for example, see a company of 100 employees respond to financial difficulty by laying off workers. They can control labor costs, but they can't just reduce their rent or insurance or materials cost. All they can do is sell more or spend less in payroll. And if they're in this situation because they are selling less, they must reduce payroll. If their sales are down 10%, they can probably lay off 20% of their workforce and reduce production by 10% - working the remainder harder to cover the difference in man-hours. These people are afraid they'll lose their jobs, so they're willing to work harder. And if they don't, and quit or are fired, there are 20 workers sitting around skilled on those machines who might be willing to return.

If every company does this, you end up with less production next quarter, fewer sales, but nearly the same profit. But you've also reduced your market by 20%, of the people who are now so strapped for cash they can't afford your lattes and lawn furniture, your ceramic giraffes and frilly pillows. Which means next month, your sales decline even more.

This reverses the normal trend for a business: you begin small, with little labor and little sales, and gradually increase your sales as your business becomes popular. As sales increase, you must increase production, and so must add more labor. Downsizing is bad for the employees, but it's a slow death for the business unless things turn around.

I'm actually very interested in this slum economy, of the 20% who get laid off and try to find work but can't, and no longer have money but must survive somehow. Are we avoiding the emergence of a slum economy through welfare programs like housing, utility, and food assistance? If so, will enrichment of those programs be an effective transition into a post-scarcity culture?
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wierd

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Re: Transhumanism Discussion Thread
« Reply #554 on: January 17, 2014, 08:44:07 pm »

The United States is already exhibiting pathology in this respect.

Currently, the #1 employer is the federal government, who had to make payroll cuts due to the sequester, and subsequent turmoil with the budget.

The liquidity shortage is being artificially propped up by the federal reserve, which is.. essentially.. conjuring money from nothing in the form of big multitrillion dollar loans to the fed, which is then used to pay the federal employees.  This introduces many trillions of dollars of liquidity every year. Even with the life support line in the vein, the economy is gasping for air, and suffering deathly pallor.

In the midst of this, you have large corporations who are lobbying congress to increase the number of H1B visa holders for skilled tech positions, not because there is a scarcity of domestic labor, but because the H1Bs will work for considerably less, and the H1B holders can be terminated and shipped home without all those niceties that american workers are legally entitled to.  This is a flagrant abuse of what the H1B program is actually for-- reversing the US brain drain on engineers and competent skilled IT and STEM positions, by enticing them to come live and work in the US.  However, when that program is being used in this fashion, it runs completely counter to that objective, because it destroys the demand for labor, and with it the incentive to stay and build a life here.

All this time, the big corps are cutting labor wherever they can, because sales are down, because unemployment is high, to avoid taking a loss on their projected big big profits. That is WHY they are abusing H1Bs!

The market is dieing, because shareholder expectations are unreasonable, and the stock exchanges are rallying like this is a bull market.  It's not. The bear is ripping at the door.
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