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Author Topic: Archery Ranges with no archers  (Read 1174 times)

Oddible

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Archery Ranges with no archers
« on: November 04, 2013, 02:00:04 am »

For the life of me I cannot get my archery squad to use the archery range.  I have done the following:
- Ensured they are set/scheduled to train
- Set the archery range to T for that squad (and removed them from the other barracks).
- Equipped with crossbows
- m-f-c and made sure they had just generic bolts assigned and that they are assigned for training (T)
- Checked my dwarf's inv... rt-hand:shield, lt-hand:crossbow, upper body:quiver (contains bolts), nothing else in his hands (except gloves)
- Set up my archery range as follows (o=open space, x=target, -= wall, s=downstairs), firing right to left...

|ox   
---------
|ox
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|ox
|s

What am I missing? I saw a thread where some people said it is better to have them on a training schedule and some people who said they won't using the archery range if you have them set to train, only on their free time. 
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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 02:41:31 am »

To make them train at archery range, they have to be inactive (with uniform enabled) and have no labors assigned. Training is sparring and lessons, individual combat drills (for melee) and archery range (ranged) are considered... Dunno, way to spend free time?
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Oddible

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 02:52:04 am »

--Found the problem--, it was that I had training set to 10 minimum.  They don't have to be inactive, in fact if you make them inactive then they train very randomly on their own whim.  However, since I was setting my archery ranges with a single target when I had 10 minimum they wouldn't train.  When I set it to 1 minimum they immediately all lined up at the targets.  Next I'm going to try setting a single archery range for the whole room (with all the targets in it) and specifying the minimum to the number of targets in the room.

EDIT - THIS WASN'T THE SOLUTION - WAS RANDOM.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 12:51:04 pm by Oddible »
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wooks

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 03:07:27 am »

Please keep me informed. Archery practice has always driven me up a wall to the point that I just captured goblins and used them as pincushions.
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Finn

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 10:35:41 pm »

Found the problem, it was that I had training set to 10 minimum.  They don't have to be inactive, in fact if you make them inactive then they train very randomly on their own whim.  However, since I was setting my archery ranges with a single target when I had 10 minimum they wouldn't train.  When I set it to 1 minimum they immediately all lined up at the targets.  Next I'm going to try setting a single archery range for the whole room (with all the targets in it) and specifying the minimum to the number of targets in the room.

I'll bet they all didn't line up at the targets, I'll bet 9 of them did while the 10th one trained, or got a drink, or went to sleep, or one of the other labors that take precedence over training.  When you set the minimum to 1 you made 9 dwarves inactive.  Inactive marksdwarves occassionally go to the archery range just as inactive melee dwarves do independent combat drills.  If you think it works some other way I encourage you to devise an experiment to prove it.

This is easiest to see if you make a marksdwarf squad with one member in it.  You can experiment with different training schedules, different labor assignments, etc., while watching that one dwarf. 
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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 09:35:03 am »

Why don't just give multiple "train 1" orders? You know, you are not limited to one order per month...
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Oddible

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 03:19:37 pm »

Seriously this is so infuriating, nothing I do seems to get any consistency with using the archery range.  After the incident I reported above where they actually started using it, they stopped and no one has ever gone in there again, never.  I've tried everything.  I've made a one person squad, that dude literally has never trained whether I set to training or inactive.  Never.  Archery Ranges are quite broken it seems. 
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Urist Mc Dwarf

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 04:14:56 pm »

 I saw a thread somewher about making the targets part of the barracks to make them train...

Finn

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2013, 05:47:20 pm »

Seriously this is so infuriating, nothing I do seems to get any consistency with using the archery range.  After the incident I reported above where they actually started using it, they stopped and no one has ever gone in there again, never.  I've tried everything.  I've made a one person squad, that dude literally has never trained whether I set to training or inactive.  Never.  Archery Ranges are quite broken it seems.

Let me try to help you understand how this works.
You cannot make them practice any more than you can make them eat, or drink, or throw a party.  It is something they decide to do by themselves.

The first step to understanding this is to start calling archery practice "practice" and military training "training" because they are two different things.  Stop fighting this in your head.  Training has nothing more to do with practice than hauling does.  Scheduling your dwarves to train and wondering why they don't practice is like scheduling them to haul rubble and wondering why won't train.  I know it's not intuitive, but training means the same thing that it does for your axedwarves, speardwarves, and every other military unit, dodging, blocking, etc.

The second concept:  your fortress will create tasks and dwarves will accept those tasks if they have the appropriate labor enabled.  These tasks have priorities, so higher priority tasks will be accepted before lower priority tasks.  If a dwarf has no task available to him, he will be idle until a job comes along.

Concept 2.5:  dwarves will also create their own tasks, like eat, drink, sleep.  These are very high priority tasks and have no labor associated with them so you can't stop them from accepting them.

Concept 3:  If a dwarf is a member of a military unit and he is idle, he may decide to practice with his weapon.  The likelihood that he does this depends on one of their mental stats, will or self-discipline.  If he has a melee weapon equipped he will go to the barracks and do Independent Combat Drills.  If he has a crossbow equipped he will go to an archery range and practice.

So if you want to maximize the chance that your marksdwarves practice you must choose dwarves with high Will, disable all of their labors including not scheduling any training.  This will make them idle most of the time.  They will still eat, drink, sleep and a few other things that will take priority over practice, but eventually they will practice...

Unless....as is the case I suspect here, they run out of bolts.  Bolts are secretly claimed by units that use them.  If you have a marksdwarf squad of 10 and you assign them 25 bolts for practice and 25 for combat, they will instantly mark 500 bolts in the fortress for their use.  Even though it looks like you have a ton lying around in your stockpiles you really don't, they are claimed.  Hunters will also claim bolts.  If you want a lot of practice going on you will need to create lots of bolts.  Think 5000 or something like that.

I know it is confusing, there are a lot of factors.  I haven't mentioned having the range configured properly because you had them training already so that's probably ok.

I hope this helps.

Edit: typos
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 03:20:12 pm by Finn »
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2013, 06:07:01 pm »

To make them train at archery range, they have to be inactive (with uniform enabled) and have no labors assigned. Training is sparring and lessons, individual combat drills (for melee) and archery range (ranged) are considered... Dunno, way to spend free time?
Huh. Said extacly the same thing as post above, just less elaborate. So ignored. Me sad.
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Quote from: Necrisha
while I'm processing immigrants
Therefore, starve your metalsmiths for maximum gains.

Finn

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2013, 11:11:05 am »

To make them train at archery range, they have to be inactive (with uniform enabled) and have no labors assigned. Training is sparring and lessons, individual combat drills (for melee) and archery range (ranged) are considered... Dunno, way to spend free time?
Huh. Said extacly the same thing as post above, just less elaborate. So ignored. Me sad.

Yes you did!  :)
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.

Oddible

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2013, 12:54:23 pm »

Got it, they definitely have enough bolts (stocks show 500+ assorted bolts) and I've assigned them via (f) ammunition. 

Will remove all labors and remove all training and see how it goes.  There is so much conflicting information on archery ranges on the web.
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Finn

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2013, 03:26:43 pm »

Got it, they definitely have enough bolts (stocks show 500+ assorted bolts) and I've assigned them via (f) ammunition. 

Will remove all labors and remove all training and see how it goes.  There is so much conflicting information on archery ranges on the web.

I think you are going to need more bolts than 500.  500 is a low amount of bolts.  Try making 3000 bolts.  How many marksdwarfs squads do you have?  How many hunters?  How are the bolts allocated for each group?
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I thought 'complained about the draft lately' meant they didn't have a door to their room.

Quietust

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 04:55:29 pm »

Back in 0.31, archers practiced just fine by assigning them to archery ranges but not assigning them to any barracks (since then they'd do individual training). Scheduling them to "Train 10/10" had the advantage of keeping them in military mode (so you could station them outside at will without worrying about uniform changes), but they'd always be "unable to follow orders".

I'm guessing things behave differently in 0.34, though...
« Last Edit: November 06, 2013, 04:58:31 pm by Quietust »
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mobucks

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Re: Archery Ranges with no archers
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2013, 07:05:02 pm »

Hey try this, always works for me:

Overlap the training area for the archery targets with the training area for your active training "barracks" (a weapon rack et al). Have your archer squad set to train at all targets, and the single weapon rack barracks.

Set minimum # to train to the exact size of your archer squad. No more, no less.

I usually set bolts to 2000, any material, for both combat and training. Less hassle. Less chance of overlooking something.
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