Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[GreatWyrmGold]

As for immovable rod vs. ship, think about what would happen when that ship struck an unmoving pillar of rock in the ocean. Do ships in that situation tend to get hull breaches and sink?

The rock makes a bigger hole, and can stay steady against more than a few tons of force.

While I can't find anyone willing to give a damn straight answer as to how time spent accelerating affects the Newton equation...

F=ma. a=Δv/Δt. Twice as much time means half as much acceleration means half as much force. Clear?

[LeoLeonardoIII]

As for immovable rod vs. ship, think about what would happen when that ship struck an unmoving pillar of rock in the ocean. Do ships in that situation tend to get hull breaches and sink?

The rock makes a bigger hole, and can stay steady against more than a few tons of force.

I'd say "the rock makes a big hole and it won't move" because then it leaves open the interpretation that "the rod doesn't make a hole and it moves".

While I can't find anyone willing to give a damn straight answer as to how time spent accelerating affects the Newton equation...

F=ma. a=Δv/Δt. Twice as much time means half as much acceleration means half as much force. Clear?

OK, do you mean Δv is change of velocity and Δt is change in time?

The formula I found was N=1kg * (m/s²), which is just sticking units into the general F=ma. In the Newtons formula, I think m/s² is a. Based on what you said, m is Δv and s² is Δt.

So, multiplying m to 10 would effectively multiply both sides of the equation by 10, leaving us with 10N.

That is, if 1N = 1kg * (1m / 1s²), then 10N = 1kg * (10m / 1s²)

But we're not just falling for some extra distance, we're falling for time. I found on Da Wiki that 1g acceleration is about 9.806 m/s². Is that what we plug in?

So xN = 1kg * (9.806m / s²)?

That would mean by adjusting s we solve x Newtons? For example, falling for 6 seconds,

N = 1kg * (9.806m / 36s)

About 0.272 N which is dumb and also increasing the number of seconds decreases the force which is dumb because you're supposed to increase speed the longer you accelerate :/

Is there a hidden t?

See? Clearly I don't know and I can't figure it out on my own and I would appreciate your help!

[Nerjin]

Couldn't we try out my plan of "It's magic so what the GM says goes and fuck physics because you people can literally spit fire"?

[Rolepgeek]

I think this all stems from a slightly different interpretation of how the rules work compared to how they're meant to work. It doesn't actually say 8000 lbs. of force; it justs says it can support 8000 lbs. this whole argument is probably invalid anyway, really, because we're interpreting the rules in our own way. I'm guessing a ship can make a DC 30 Strength check.

To note, though, I also don't think you can take ten on it, as taking ten typically means taking your time and doing everything right, rather than quickly, and it is meant to be pushed ten feet in a single round for that.

Also to note, I believe that if the rod supports 8000 lbs., falls, then the weight recedes, that it will stop in whatever position it was in when the weight came off, as it doesn't say anything about the rod resetting, burning out completely, or anything like that.

Alternatively, one could propose that it would continue moving in the same direction at a constant speed if the weight is removed, as one could suppose that that much weight causes it to 'blank out' until it is removed or otherwise stopped, and that the rod simply keeps it's current velocity and jerk(change in acceleration over time), as it remains in one place relative to the 'earth', which is probably spinning. This world may not be, because magic(the sun is secretly the Elemental Plane of Fire and the moon is the Elemental Plane of Water; that's why tides happen. Yup.). This may mean, depending on it's orientation and the surface below it, that it may dig into the ground or otherwise become difficult to retrieve.

Food for thought.

Also, you got it slightly wrong, no offense. You were correct in that m/s² is a, but that is the units of a. Not the formula. And the 'formula' you found was also simply displaying units.

1 Newtonof force is equal to the force of 1 kilogram of matter accelerating at 1 meter per second per second.

The triangle is delta, which just means 'change in'. You find acceleration by dividing the change in velocity by the time it took for it to change said velocity that amount.

Edit: My character can fly with a measly ten-twelve foot wingspan, even though she weighs 175 pounds, but only until she reaches an arbitrary weight limit based on her strength which is for some reason equal throughout her entire body, or at least relatively proportional compared to everyone else in the world, even though she has wings. She also exerts the same effort flying directly upwards as fast as she can for 18 seconds, taking only six second breaks of gliding, still straining her wings, before repeating the process, doing so 33 times and then flying as fast as she can straight up for only six seconds before being completely unable to do so for the rest of the day, period, though still able to glide, even if she took an hour of rest and soothing for her wings, and this is the same effort as if she, over the course of ~7 hours, hovered in place or flew forward for a measly 2-3 seconds at a time(a single move action), resting for 4 minutes, then doing so again, and at the end of that, being unable to do so again, even if she again rested for an hour, got someone to massage her wings, or even get magically healed, and yet still be unable to fly for the rest of the day.

Sense + DnD = Insanity

[LeoLeonardoIII]

I think this all stems from a slightly different interpretation of how the rules work compared to how they're meant to work. It doesn't actually say 8000 lbs. of force; it justs says it can support 8000 lbs. this whole argument is probably invalid anyway, really, because we're interpreting the rules in our own way. I'm guessing a ship can make a DC 30 Strength check.

To note, though, I also don't think you can take ten on it, as taking ten typically means taking your time and doing everything right, rather than quickly, and it is meant to be pushed ten feet in a single round for that.

I don't think the question was whether it would stop the ship - clearly the ship will put out the same force as 8000 lb. hanging on the rod. And the taking 10 thing is moot because you can just drag the rod weight-wise at a much lower STR than it suggests.

Also to note, I believe that if the rod supports 8000 lbs., falls, then the weight recedes, that it will stop in whatever position it was in when the weight came off, as it doesn't say anything about the rod resetting, burning out completely, or anything like that.

True! I assumed from the way the item description read, that the rod didn't constantly put up 8000 lb. of resistance - which would mean at exactly 8001 lb. it would slowly sink to the ground - but that there was no effect until 8000 lb. at which point its magic canceled and it "fell" as it says. If you let go, the rod would snap in place in the air and you would continue falling. But if you had 8000 lb. on it and were falling with the rod, you might be able to drop weight to get the rod to activate again, but if the force on the rod were more than 36kN (such as a 70kg human with 30kg gear holding onto it and having fallen 118 feet) the rod couldn't activate until you let go. Which wouldn't be all that useful to the person falling. You could, for example, weld the rod to your armor and deactivate/reactivate to make yourself fall 5' at a time, and be fine. Falling farther might incur falling damage, as your body is effectively striking the harness that the rod is welded to when it snaps to a stop. But if you didn't care about falling damage, that average human could fall 100' at a time between stops and the rod would still be able to withstand the forces placed upon it.

Also, you got it slightly wrong, no offense.

No offense at all, I'm sure I got it wrong, I actually want help on this and I appreciate your effort in educating me!

You were correct in that m/s² is a, but that is the units of a. Not the formula. And the 'formula' you found was also simply displaying units.

1 Newtonof force is equal to the force of 1 kilogram of matter accelerating at 1 meter per second per second.

The triangle is delta, which just means 'change in'. You find acceleration by dividing the change in velocity by the time it took for it to change said velocity that amount.

But what units are we using for v and t when we're trying to calculate a for the Newton equation?

[Rolepgeek]

v is in m/s, and t is in s. That's where the m/s² comes from.

As for the encumbrance, I'm saying I don't think that's how it works. It does say 'push' the rod ten feet, not drag. Plus, I believe you can only drag at 5 feet per round. Plus, I'm fairly sure that that is not how the rod would work in such a situation. It doesn't weigh 8000 lbs.; it can just support 8000 lbs.. There are plenty of things that can support a weight but weigh less than it. And for just as many, the opposite is true. It remains in one place, and regardless of how much you pull on it, you will not budge it without making the strength check.

As for your second note, I must disagree. As soon as you took the rod with you, from falling(theoretically being wrenched upwards and thusly decellerating from the sudden jerk before continuing on your gravity assisted journey), the net force acting on the rod relative to you would be 0, discounting waving it back and forth. Of course, should you activate it or whatnot, you would still be moving, and possibly place 8000+ pounds of force on it again, breaking the magic, but this should still slow you down. If you pressed/activated it quickly enough in succession, you might be able to slow yourself down enough to come relatively safely to a stop. Besides all of this lies the matter that it would only fail as soon as all of your weight was forced to be supported by the rod, rather than continuing in freefall, and depending on how one gripped the rod(and somehow managed to keep their grip, as I suspect that it would be more likely for you to let go and keep falling than break the rod's magic), you might be able to have slowed yourself or spread out the direction of force so that it would not break the rod's magic.

However, I must also disagree with you about the harness of your body 'striking' the harness of your armor. You will be touching your armor. It is simply about the rate of decelleration, at least in reality, that and the area in which the force caused by the decelleration is spread out. Sure, if you had on a breastplate, poorly made, simple, or otherwise just a few pieces of armor essentially hanging on you, that would be the case. But if you were wearing full plate or half plate, or even chaimail? The straps distribute the weight over your body, thusly also distributing the force. With chainmail. You would likely come to hang around the rod, as the chains are more elastic as a whole than plate. It would also affect the entire region in which chain was able to touch you. Of course, more likely, the chains would simply snap and you would keep falling, depending on your speed.

This also brings up the question of how they interact with holding up weights together, and whether, should they be round, if they can roll in place. One might be able to make a conveyor belt with them over many miles of distance, descending only slightly in a similar fashion to Roman aqueducts, using any of a variety of materials to form a perfectly straight plane, most likely through magic, across the top of them, or simply letting long objects roll down them. Similarly, if one has 3 equally distant immovable rods, forming a triangle, and places a weight with a center of mass directly above said triangle of a mass of 20,000 pounds, would they fail? Would it be distributed and none of them fail? Would all of them fail from having a weight of 8000+ pounds placed upon them, supporting only part of it or not? If the triangle they formed was at an angle, or the weight was focused on one or two rods more than the other(s), what would happen? Would the one fail, and the others, possibly weighted down by the mass momentarily at it's full weight, fail also? Would two fail, having each to support more than 8000+, but the other remain, having had only to support some lesser number?

Although, I must also question my own proposal of them retaining the same velocity, acceleration, or jerk, for, presumably, if you were to activate it whilst falling, it should keep falling with you were you to do that, which it almost certainly does not.


I feel like an actual mage debating with fellow mages about magical interactions as compare to physics. :3

[GreatWyrmGold]

While I can't find anyone willing to give a damn straight answer as to how time spent accelerating affects the Newton equation...

F=ma. a=Δv/Δt. Twice as much time means half as much acceleration means half as much force. Clear?

OK, do you mean Δv is change of velocity and Δt is change in time?

Yes.

The formula I found was N=1kg * (m/s²), which is just sticking units into the general F=ma. In the Newtons formula, I think m/s² is a. Based on what you said, m is Δv and s² is Δt.

It's a bit more complicated. s stands for seconds, like m stands for meters and kg stands for kilograms. One of the seconds...es is from velocity (measures in m/s), the other is from the changing (measured in s). Trying to put it in words makes it seem more complex than it is...

-snip-

No. That is the acceleration caused by gravity. If you fall for one second, you will accelerate to about 9.8 meters per second. After six seconds, your velocity is 9.8*6=58.8 m/s².

I think this all stems from a slightly different interpretation of how the rules work compared to how they're meant to work. It doesn't actually say 8000 lbs. of force; it justs says it can support 8000 lbs. this whole argument is probably invalid anyway, really, because we're interpreting the rules in our own way. I'm guessing a ship can make a DC 30 Strength check.

We are using the rules we have to guess how this would work, by combining them with real-world physics. Which may be amistake, but it is still fun.
And technically the ship cannot make a Strength check, because it is an inanimate object.

However, I must also disagree with you about the harness of your body 'striking' the harness of your armor. You will be touching your armor. It is simply about the rate of decelleration, at least in reality, that and the area in which the force caused by the decelleration is spread out. Sure, if you had on a breastplate, poorly made, simple, or otherwise just a few pieces of armor essentially hanging on you, that would be the case. But if you were wearing full plate or half plate, or even chaimail? The straps distribute the weight over your body, thusly also distributing the force. With chainmail. You would likely come to hang around the rod, as the chains are more elastic as a whole than plate. It would also affect the entire region in which chain was able to touch you. Of course, more likely, the chains would simply snap and you would keep falling, depending on your speed.

It would depend heavily on the harness and such.

Although, I must also question my own proposal of them retaining the same velocity, acceleration, or jerk, for, presumably, if you were to activate it whilst falling, it should keep falling with you were you to do that, which it almost certainly does not.

I also question it, as it makes no sense, either with the RAW, intent, or most forms of common sense.

I feel like an actual mage debating with fellow mages about magical interactions as compare to physics. :3

Fun, isn't it?

[My Name is Immaterial]

I feel like an actual mage debating with fellow mages about magical interactions as compare to physics. :3

Fun, isn't it?

Heh. Mages with their math. I borrow brains to do that for me.

[Rolepgeek]

If you really wanted to get into RAW, actually, GWG, it would remain exactly in the same place in the universe. Meaning it would go flying away from it's position relative to you or the earth and hundreds of thousands of miles an hour.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If you really wanted to get into RAW, actually, GWG, it would remain exactly in the same place in the universe. Meaning it would go flying away from it's position relative to you or the earth and hundreds of thousands of miles an hour.

Um, that line of thinking was conclusively disproved by Sir Isaac Newton, who showed that there is no such thing as "Relative Motion," and hence no such it is impossible for something to be "in exactly the same place in the universe" without any point of reference. I typically assume it stays in the same location relative to the surface of the planet.
Oh, and you are assuming that your campaign takes place on an Earth-like world as opposed to, say, a flat world in the center of the cosmos, a dome atop elephants atop a turtle (possible atop more turtles), the inside of a sphere, the branches of a giant tree, or whatever.

[Nerjin]

No rods for any of you. Immovable or otherwise.

[Remuthra]

If you really wanted to get into RAW, actually, GWG, it would remain exactly in the same place in the universe. Meaning it would go flying away from it's position relative to you or the earth and hundreds of thousands of miles an hour.

Um, that line of thinking was conclusively disproved by Sir Isaac Newton, who showed that there is no such thing as "Relative Motion," and hence no such it is impossible for something to be "in exactly the same place in the universe" without any point of reference. I typically assume it stays in the same location relative to the surface of the planet.
Oh, and you are assuming that your campaign takes place on an Earth-like world as opposed to, say, a flat world in the center of the cosmos, a dome atop elephants atop a turtle (possible atop more turtles), the inside of a sphere, the branches of a giant tree, or whatever.

Speaking of which, this world is flat.
Mostly because I didn't want another side for travel to take place across instead of the Realm of Fog.

[Nerjin]

Remember guys, the world is just as dynamic as its characters. Therefore Remuthra thinks your characters are flat. Isn't that nice of him to just come out and say?

[Unfunny joke of the century... Complete]

[Remuthra]

Remember guys, the world is just as dynamic as its characters. Therefore Remuthra thinks your characters are flat. Isn't that nice of him to just come out and say?

[Unfunny joke of the century... Complete]

Twould be funnier if it weren't so true. *sniff*

[Taricus]

Pfffft. The would could be round, it's just the other ocean has nothing it it (Ala the pacific ocean )