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Author Topic: Mafia Theory  (Read 76158 times)

notquitethere

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #120 on: April 15, 2015, 08:16:15 pm »

Lot of good points 4mask. Regarding the meta aversion to bandwagons and agreeing with one another: I think this is in part due to the fact almost all games here work off of a plurality lynch system. On many other fora they require a majority hammer to end the day, with a nolynch occurring otherwise. I think game-wise I prefer our way of doing it (as when bandwagoning, or 'sheeping' becomes acceptable, it tends to encourage a lot of lazy play) but it does mean scum are often able to get away with having completely unproductive lynch targets as everyone is expected to be mostly doing their own thing.

To improve our collective game, I'd like to see people questioned more for when they're not actively contributing to a wagon or counter-wagon by the end of a day.
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Tiruin

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #121 on: April 15, 2015, 11:35:41 pm »

I would love to put a ton of psychology related jargon (please punch any assumptions on psychology that give a negative standpoint, thanks) here, because its very related to the points being raised. :P
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Shakerag

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #122 on: April 16, 2015, 08:55:00 am »

I would love to put a ton of psychology related jargon (please punch any assumptions on psychology that give a negative standpoint, thanks) here, because its very related to the points being raised. :P
Psychology is good.  Psychiatry is (IMO) quackery. 


(One big change I would like to see: an increased emphasis on lynch arguments as being to convince people, with greater acceptance of acceptance of arguments.  There's an aversion to bandwagoning, I think, that keeps people from publicly agreeing with the points of others.)
I concur.  If you are crafting a strong argument as to why someone is scum, that should help convince others that your target is scum as well. 

One main point that I remember Jim stressing (which I would stress as an IC as well) is to have -reasons- for what you're doing.  If you have a perfectly valid reason for doing something, then I think you can justify actions that would otherwise be blatantly scummy.  And I think a lot of game play analysis can be boiled down to analyzing the reasons someone did/said something (or lack thereof).

4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #123 on: April 16, 2015, 09:14:45 am »

Shakerag: The problem being that rarely do two people have the same views of justification, so what to one player may seem perfectly justified could seem to another as scummy and lazy.

Toaster

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #124 on: April 16, 2015, 09:17:14 am »

I see that as a good starting point for a discussion that reveals motives.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #125 on: April 16, 2015, 09:18:03 am »

I see that as a good starting point for a discussion that reveals motives.
It would be, but in my experience once someone makes up their mind on justification of an action it never changes, and all of their effort goes into attacking the person who made the (in their mind) unjustified action.

We should probably discuss some modifications to the old text we use in the BM's, though, because it is outdated and oversimplified.

4maskwolf

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Re: Mafia Theory
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2015, 06:33:48 pm »

    Spoiler: Gameplay and Concept (click to show/hide)
    This serves as a fairly good overview of a basic mafia game, without being overly confusing in its nature.  I have no complaints here.

    Spoiler: Role Things (click to show/hide)
    I'm rather ambivalent about this setup.  On the one hand, most of the high-level games (with the exception of GBU and NSBM) have a large variety of power roles, so in some ways this deprives people of experience controlling a power role, which needs to be handled slightly differently than vanilla town.  On the other hand, it encourages players to rely on their wits to scumhunt rather than relying on the power role they possess, and players who do roll up a town power role get to work within a setup where their power is worth a lot more than it otherwise would be, which is a teaching experience in and of itself.

    Spoiler: ICs (click to show/hide)
    As Jack mentioned in his analysis, in general the feared zerg rush to eliminate the IC's doesn't actually happen, so this section is probably sufficient.  I usually add my own disclaimers about IC's when I IC a game, but that's up to the preference of the IC what they say.

    Spoiler: Death Rule (click to show/hide)
    Why is the bah post even allowed anyway?  I'm kinda curious about the history of that.
    Spoiler: PM Rules (click to show/hide)
    Fair enough, I can't say having pm's adds much to a game such as a BM.  And the "no quoting the mod" rule is definitely valid.
    Spoiler: Miscellaneous (click to show/hide)
    I know I've asked this before, but what is the point behind this rule and what does it prevent?

    Spoiler: On D1 No-lynches (click to show/hide)
    I disagree with certain portions of this, but in a BM it is definitely a bad idea to D1 no-lynch because of the limited number of town power roles.

    The example probably needs to be changed, it's kind of silly and mentions OMGUSing (which is a stupid accusation to begin with).  Also, the whole thing recommends tunneling in on people, which is more detrimental to the town in the long run.  Actually, this whole thing probably needs to be torn out, the pressure vote has pretty much lost all impact in the actual gameplay.

    The disclaimer needs to be emphasized more, that scumtells are INCREDIBLY subjective.  Frankly, the only way to know for sure if something is a scumtell is to know the meta of the person in question: for instance, I wouldn't lynch some people for active-lurking, but if NQT started posting a lot of useless crap it would catch my attention (for example).  As another, inverted example from my own meta: normally leading the lynch on a scum player is a sign that one is not scum, but with me it's really a nulltell because I've been known to bus when I believe that the benefits outweigh the risks.

    Spoiler: Bandwagoning (click to show/hide)
    It can't be emphasized enough that voting for someone with a lot of votes on them is NOT a bandwagon: a bandwagon is doing so without good reason, particularly when you were going in another direction and suddenly change direction to hop on the wagon.

    Spoiler: OMGUS (click to show/hide)
    Should be removed.  Oftentimes I find it's easiest to scumhunt people who are attacking me by pointing out the flaws in their arguments and challenging where their accusations are coming from.

    Spoiler: Defending/Chainsawing (click to show/hide)
    These are almost never applied because it is so hard to determine what is defending and what is simply scumhunting someone for perceived logical flaws.  In theory this is the case, but in practice scum tend to disassociate themselves during the day and coordinate their night actions.

    Spoiler: Lurking (click to show/hide)
    I have yet to see actually malign lurking occur, and I think it's faded out of the meta overall.  Active lurking, however, is still something of a scumtell in some cases.  This should probably be simplified to just talk about active lurking.

    I've never seen it used in practice.  It's hard to pin down and even harder to prove, and mostly when I feel someone is trying too hard I'll get a sort of vague gut instinct that something is wrong.

    Spoiler: Passiveness (click to show/hide)
    As long as passiveness is distinguished from lack of activity, I don't have much of a problem with this one.  Amongst experiences players, being unusually passive does often indicate that something is up.

    Spoiler: Backtracking (click to show/hide)
    Very rarely seen because most scum aren't that stupid, and most backtracking I have seen is due to forgetfulness more than anything else.

    Spoiler: Lying (click to show/hide)
    Ehhhhhh.... I disagree in some cases.  While in a BM lying is a fairly good sign that something is up, this being a general scumtell is a discourager on gambits and deception tactics used by the town to mess with the mafia's heads.

    Spoiler: Rolefishing (click to show/hide)
    Ehhh... I guess?  Within a BM maybe, but rolefishing for town power roles is a decent strategy for doctors wanting to find someone to protect as well.

    Spoiler: Argembarger (click to show/hide)
    Anope.  I have never, ever seen a scum do this as an AtE, and even though it might happen it's really just a tell that someone is fed up with the game and wants to be lynched, so it's a nulltell at most.

    TheDarkStar

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #127 on: April 16, 2015, 06:45:16 pm »

    The bah post is in because it's mildly humorous.
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    Peradon

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #128 on: April 16, 2015, 06:48:19 pm »

    The bah post is in because it's mildly humorous.
    And finding a Bah GIF is always fun...
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    Dorsidwarf

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #129 on: April 16, 2015, 06:50:55 pm »

    The 'Argembarger' Bit is complete drivel. It's never caught a scum as far as I've seen, and scum almost never give up. And, it's only really led to town PRs under the wagon being hammered because "GIVING UP IS IN THE GUIDE AS A SCUMTELL".
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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #130 on: April 16, 2015, 07:04:12 pm »

    The 'Argembarger' Bit is complete drivel. It's never caught a scum as far as I've seen, and scum almost never give up. And, it's only really led to town PRs under the wagon being hammered because "GIVING UP IS IN THE GUIDE AS A SCUMTELL".
    This.
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    TheDarkStar

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #131 on: April 16, 2015, 07:06:33 pm »

    The guide needs to be rewritten. Due to the length, would it work to have different people write one or two sections each and then compile the entire thing?
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    Persus13

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #132 on: April 16, 2015, 10:17:58 pm »

    I'd rather get some of the more experienced player's voice before starting work on rewriting.

    With regards to the lurking part, I definitely lurked to avoid attention in the last Supernatural, while Toaster did something similar in the last Paranormal. There's a couple other occasions I've seen lurking used effectively by scum to drop off the radar (last NSBM might have been a case as well), however distinguishing between a simple lack of a desire (or time) to post and actively avoiding posting to avoid attention is something worth adding.
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    Toaster

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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #133 on: April 17, 2015, 10:17:23 am »

    To be fair, I also was lurking because my motivation to play was critically low.  I never should have joined that game in the first place.  That said, I have in the past seen value in tactical (not strategic) lurking as scum.  The idea is "not be around" at a critical juncture when things are swinging (often day end) so you aren't there and forced to commit to a choice you don't want to make.  It's a bit underhanded, and better scum than I could be there anyway and make a convincing argument for others to take the path that benefited scum the most, but I will say I've done a tactical lurk in the past.
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    Re: Mafia Theory
    « Reply #134 on: April 17, 2015, 01:56:16 pm »

    That's a fair explanation. A general question for all: what alignment should a Joker claim?

    A role that has a mafia equivalent, and is semi important to draw the doctor if there is one to you. When asked for what you did say you were rb'd until lynched.
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