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Author Topic: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.  (Read 2772 times)

TheOnlySolitaire

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[EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« on: October 22, 2013, 08:50:27 am »

I am putting together a mod for next DF release that will add lots of detailed historical cultures/races to DF, in an attempt to make Adv Mode more immersive and hopefully more fun.

So far, I'm working on:
Japanese
Chinese
Vikings
Romans
Europeans (to replace standard humans)
Rajput Indians/Mughals
Muslim Cultures (A Muslim equivalent of Europeans)
Africans
Aztecs/Incans
Native Americans
Russians/Cossacks

-------------------------------------------------------------


BUT, I wanted to ask you all some questions first:


1) If you can think of any historical civs or mythical cultures that you might like to see in Adventure mode, please suggest them...

2) Do you spend much time playing adventure mode to hunt semi/megabeasts, titans etc?

3a) Does attention to detail matter to you in adventure mode?

3b) How would you feel about culturally specific weapon, clothing and armour variations, or would you prefer to play where the variations are limited for simplicity? (Ie one type of axe used by all civs)

4) Should elves and goblins be removed if other races can fulfill their contribution to the DF world?

5) Do you ever use the pommel strike and blade slapping attacks with weapons?

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

6) Why do you play DF Adventure Mode? What is it, exactly or generally, that you like so much about DF Adv Mode?


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Funk

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 12:37:21 pm »

some answers
3B) id try to only give each civ one or two weapons and have the rest be rare one off weapons.

4) yes
5) yes i some times use the odd pommel strike.

ill give you some raws to help in a abit.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Icefire2314

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 02:58:24 pm »

I know you have the Aztecs, but the Mayans were a pretty major central american culture. They were also pretty advanced in technology for their time, so maybe you could give them special items only they could make or something.
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TheOnlySolitaire

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2013, 03:18:06 pm »

Because of the broad and general similarities in Aztec, Mayan and Incan cultures, I was planning on rolling them into one civ, like I will do for the Medieval Europe and Muslim States which despite their differences were still very similar.
But if I find enough research I'll consider making them separate entities, from what I do know, the Mayans are an interesting civ.

To clarify, I'm planning on replicating each culture as accurately as possible, from materials, to positions and professions, to social castes, to weapons and clothing. I've recently finished my degree in history and want to use it for fun - I'll do a lot of research for each culture, to try and capture it as best I can within the constraints of DF's next release, but may make some choices in favour of gameplay.

Also, I'm planning to make use of the retiring forts that comes with next version, to create a world save that has realistic/well replicated sites - ie Japanese castles, Aztec temple cities etc.

some answers
3B) id try to only give each civ one or two weapons and have the rest be rare one off weapons.

4) yes
5) yes i some times use the odd pommel strike.

ill give you some raws to help in a abit.

For 3b do you mean, for example with the Vikings, have the Daneaxe and say a Norse sword, and then just generic weapons like ''Spear'' and ''Dagger'' for the rest of their repertoir?
Or do you mean each culture should have all their culturally specific weapons, but have them only regularly use for example a Gladius for Romans, so that most Roman soldiers you encounter will have Gladius swords, while the Romans still have access to their other culturally specific weapons, so you still will find Roman axemen or spearmen etc?
« Last Edit: October 22, 2013, 03:27:03 pm by TheOnlySolitaire »
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itg

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2013, 03:28:06 pm »

1) Greeks, Egyptians, and Mongols come to mind.

2) I would do this more if it were easier to find them. Usually I explore, take quests, try to find my old fort, etc.

3a) Yes.

3b) I would like culturally specific items, especially if they behave slightly differently in combat.

4) I wouldn't mind seeing goblins and elves take on a lesser role, but I wouldn't want them to be completely removed.

5) Rarely, because they're generally not very effective.

6) I mainly play fortress mode, and it's sometimes interesting to see the DF world from another perspective. Exploring and killing things is fun. Frankly, I feel like there's still not enough to do in adventure mode right now, so any new features would be welcome.

TheOnlySolitaire

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2013, 04:41:04 pm »

snip

If I can get Cossack horsemen to work how I want them to work, then there shall be mongols, but I won't do them unless I can actually make them the mounted warriors they deserve to be.
As for Greeks and Egyptians, I'll add them to the to do list, although the Egyptians will be partly covered by the Muslim states, that is if you mean the Crusades-Medieval era Egyptian (Mamluks etc).

Maybe Once I have the current list done I'll do an 'Ancient Peoples' Plugin/add-on, as I would like to do Babylonians etc too... 

The mod I have in mind will be about exploring and discovering, and immersing yourself in interesting cultures, and of course adding a vast plethora of new friends and foes.
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Loam

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2013, 05:58:39 pm »

3b) I once did my own weapons research for a mod, and found that, as many names as there are for "spear" (dory, phalanx, pilum, etc.), they are all pretty much exactly the same pointed stick. I found this to be largely true for weapons in general. Therefore, I think it makes more sense to have a variety of weapon classes, rather than individual weapons; so instead of having a "katana" for the Japanese culture, just say "sabre" (i.e. a single-edged sword meant for slashing).

4) They could take over one of the cultures. You could model the elves after, say, the Native American culture, but still call them elves. I'm not so sure you could (or should) do the same for goblins, as that would imply a negative value judgment against the chosen culture. I think goblins can stay as they are (an irredeemable force of evil)

6) I play to create stories. Rather than going around killing everything that moves, I prefer to give my characters backstories and motives and personalities. Generally, actual play still settles into "kill the dragon" mode (because there isn't much else to do), but I like making up reasons why I'm killing the dragon. So any changes you make that would enhance the storytelling ability would be great.
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Funk

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2013, 06:43:25 pm »

I meant keep the default item names for genarl use but each civ get a super weapon.
so Rajput Indians/ Mughals get punch dagger things and the Japanese get a katana in place of the longsword.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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TheOnlySolitaire

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2013, 07:16:21 pm »

I meant keep the default item names for genarl use but each civ get a super weapon.
so Rajput Indians/ Mughals get punch dagger things and the Japanese get a katana in place of the longsword.

Ah, I see. That's not a bad idea at all actually Funk... I'll keep it in mind, and use it if people seem more inclined to agree with less is more..

3b) I once did my own weapons research for a mod, and found that, as many names as there are for "spear" (dory, phalanx, pilum, etc.), they are all pretty much exactly the same pointed stick. I found this to be largely true for weapons in general. Therefore, I think it makes more sense to have a variety of weapon classes, rather than individual weapons; so instead of having a "katana" for the Japanese culture, just say "sabre" (i.e. a single-edged sword meant for slashing).

I agree with what you are saying, it would make things a hell of a lot simpler; I've done a lot of research on weaponry and armour for my history degree, so I can fully concur that weapon classes would make more sense. given how all cultures used similar weapons over the ages, but I do have a reservation: It could/would detract from the depth of cultural exploration, and thus immersion.

If all civs have the same weapons then the civs become kind of interchangeable - weapon design, as with armour design, clothing choices and architecture, makes up a fundamental part of an immersive experience because they are different to other designs of the same object. Cultures throughout history have all used the same weapons, but their design and use was very different; the Greeks and Romans used stabby spears, the Japanese and Vikings used spears that could slash and stab (More so the Japanese than Vikings, but they still did).

Note: The various weapons would handle differently, although some may be similar to others... Ie scimitars and sabres are similar, but scimitars and longswords are not similar.

That said, I don't want to go overboard and throw loads of strange names of obscure weapons into the mix to confuse the player, but I think a variety of culturally unique weapons adds flavour to the various civs, and given how sparse Adventure mode is - it couldn't hurt to have a bit more flavour... (within reason)
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Kolnukbyne

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2013, 08:06:48 pm »

2) A lot of it. I generate my worlds to have far more titans/megabeasts than normal.

3a) I'm not sure - I've never seen attention to detail in Adventure Mode

3b) I want macuahuitls. Please give us macuahuitls. Would the same apply to cultural clothing/armor as well? I'd very much like to see that.

4) I'd say you could have them still, but perhaps change their roles a little. Turn goblins into monstrous night creatures rather than stock-standard enemy humanoids, or something?

5) Only if I'm messing around.

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY

6) I like the hugely controlled combat, the 'adventure' part of it and the difficulty. As well as the ability to behead a minotaur with a handful of sand.

Matoro

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2013, 12:36:19 am »

Woah, I actually planned something like that once.

Are you going to make a own creatures for all the civs? I'd recommend just naming them all humans instead of "european" or "muslim". The differences would be mainly in equipment and in ethics. If you're going with "historical" cultures, fantasy creatures should be replaced. However, why don't you make this same for elves, dwarves and goblins, too? There could be Tolkien elves and DF elves and WoW elves etc.

Are you just improving the civilizations or other adventure mode -related things, too? Like adventure mode crafting?

I play adventure mod because of legends and because of roleplaying. I liek to explore the world and the people and the locations. I don't care much about random werebeast-quests, instead I roleplay something like long-lost heir to Dwarven throne and set my quest to recruit an army and kill the dwarven king. I like all kinds of flavor things like different kind of swords etc. just because of the world feels more alive that way.
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itisnotlogical

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2013, 12:46:56 am »

1) Maybe angels? They live in small numbers and have no technology, but they're physically tough, they can fly and have crazy supernatural powers.

5) Never in the current version, but I imagine they'll have more utility in the impending version change which may or may not include nonlethal combat.

6) Extremely violent combat that's difficult but still mostly fair, except for sniper rifles crossbows and goblin blobs that show up as soon as you have a large number of followers.
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TheOnlySolitaire

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2013, 06:09:32 am »

snip

Macuahuitls will replace swords for the Aztec/Mayan/Incan civs, so yeah they'll be in there, along with atlatl to replace crossbows.
And I like your idea on goblins being Night Creatures... I'll look into that :)

snip

Largely the different civs will all be from the same basic template, but I will use separate creature files as I want Vikings to be taller and stronger than say, the Japanese, but maybe not as dextrous. But also as I want say Vikings to have unruly beards and nordic features, while having the japanese have uniformly black hair and more neat and styled facial hair.
All the creatures will have a separate creature file for ease of editing etc.
That is an interesting idea for the elves, goblins etc though. I'll probably get the current list done, then do an extra plugin for the elves, goblins etc - I'd have to do a bit more research to make them as detailed as I plan to have the historical civs i'm adding though...

I plan on adding more to Adv mode crafting, and eventually, I hope to add cultural myths and magic so that each cultural civ has a unique magic set too. Although, this will probably happen once I've worked each of the civs into a give-or-take unique Fort mode compatible entity.
I'm also planning on adding lots of wandering ''weapon master'' and bandit beasts, so that you might have to hunt down a deadly swordmaster etc, or get ambushed by brigands, (Kind of depends on the new additions this coming release)
As for roleplaying etc, I'm going to try and get more entity positions to be present in legends and the world as you explore - so you might find a taxman, or a general, or that civs champion etc. I want people to be able to roleplay more and feel immersed in their adventure. As far as you can with the limits of DF that is.

snip
Angels won't be in the mod, although I appreciate people like the fantasy aspect, so I might add angels in when I get around to the cultural myths and magic stuff; they kind of fit with Christian Europe's myth.

You make a good point about the upcoming versions non-lethal combat - I may have to wait and see before outright removing those attacks for new ones.
On crossbows and bows: I'll be re-balancing them so that they remain deadly, but not as the railcannons they are at the moment, but Toady might rebalance them this release anyway...
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Rumrusher

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2013, 08:27:44 am »

1)can't think of any that isn't in a mod I'm not the type that care for fluff unless said fluff ends up sparking a war over it.
2)no unless I believe said beast has a tie in for a faction and could be tamed
3)no
3b)don't mind since I'm not a history nut
4)no just no it won't be Dwarf fortress if we remove them, that would be saying let's remove the dwarves, all the fictional elements and recreate modern earth ... which is a good idea for a mod but I don't want that in vanilla, I kinda want their sites back so that wars could happen on their homeland and not on Dwarven lawns.
5)? uhhh weird question to ask skip

finally
6) well it started long ago when I got really really bored with running around doing quests and found I could manipulate nations and accidentally killed a megabeast who was a god of a elven nation, now back then I thought about the repercussions of doing so but thought DF won't simulate the fallout, only to notice: lawmakers being murder will auto migrate the town to the next location, elves will be pissed if you murder their god of worship, Elves don't like having new non elves migrants come to their Resorts, Elves will take over abandon cities that lost their lawmakers, Elves will start culling refugees until they end up pissing enough of them off and they got a band of hobos made of dwarves and humans rushing into their homes, Oops I didn't even kill their god a goblin companion did it. having slightly nudge all these events to end up with a huge world ending battle of human, dwarf vs Elf in 40d as some broken armed towering bronze colossus who brought a dwarf and goblin along the ride.
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Funk

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Re: [EXPANDING ADV MODE]: Why do you play? And other questions.
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2013, 10:29:24 am »

Macuahuitls are a bit of a funny weapon, makeing them out of stone tends to make them be blunt.
This is because all stone uses the same stats(marble) with only a few changes.

Makeing them id have you need a number of sharp stones and some wood, still here is code to magic one up for testing.
Spoiler: Magic stone sword (click to show/hide)

As for wandering ''weapon masters'' have
Spoiler:  The Black Knight (click to show/hide)
he has inbuilt weapons and iron armor so he is an ideal way to have a monster that has weapons no matter what.

Cloth armour is a really common thing, mosty as padding but thicker pices where often used on there own to stop arrows.

This armour is in need of fine tuneing as it block cutting attacks too well.
Spoiler:  Cloth armour (click to show/hide)
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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