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[itisnotlogical]

3D graphics are much more difficult than they look. I'd rather see the game part finished before they even thought about adding graphics.

[Niccolo]

There actually is a download to get full 3D graphics. It works rather nicely, but you do end up with a bit of a low framerate. You can find it at this elegant and finely-crafted link.

[MaGicBush]

There actually is a download to get full 3D graphics. It works rather nicely, but you do end up with a bit of a low framerate. You can find it at this elegant and finely-crafted link.

Hah very funny, except I saw the description of the link as no.gif .

So does Toady work full-time on Dwarf Fortress? With the income from donations he gets he could easily, as well as add another developer to help with modeling . I know it wont happen, but it would be nice at some point to at least add 2d. That would add a ton of income as well.

[Putnam]

So does Toady work full-time on Dwarf Fortress?

Yes.

With the income from donations he gets he could easily, as well as add another developer to help with modeling .

No:

Rainseeker:   Let's talk about ASCII characters!

Toady:   Alright.

Rainseeker:    Because your game is ASCII, and ASCII is probably the most fun graphical representation of a game I've ever played. It's definitely old school ... but I think that the complexity of your game totally overwhelms even noticing it's ASCII after a while. Macbeth asked this interesting question; 'As the project gets more complex do you expect that these ASCII character sets won't be able to support the detail you're adding? What are your plans for displaying that information?'

Toady:   It's already at that point, if you've seen the elves versus elephants or goblins versus goats or whatever issues come up ...

Rainseeker:   'Why are those elephants shooting arrows at me? I don't understand!'

Toady:   And there are methods of getting around that to some extent, but eventually you hit a wall. You saw with world generation recently the human sprawl I went with lines and whatever the letter is called (�) when you put an 'a' and an 'e' together for the hill farms, and eventually your bag runs out of ... bag stuff ...

Rainseeker:   Tricks.

Toady:   There's no more tricks in the bags, no more little characters in the bag. And so then you hit that point where you're like 'do you just go over to a tileset at that point? Do you experiment with Unicode stuff? If you add just a new IBM codepage r256 grid characters or whatever ...' If we add another grid of characters that look promising and just stick with that, that's kind of counterproductive in a way, because once you jump up beyond 256 you're free to move about the country at that point and go up to 65'000 or millions or whatever the rewrite entails.

At the same time there's something to be said for the ASCII mode of the game, which I like because I can develop it quickly and I don't have to ... Zach and I drawing is not the same as other people drawing ... or maybe the problem is it's the same as other people drawing who aren't artists. And we can't use other people's tilesets without worrying about legal business, and more so not just legal business but ongoing development; if we've got a tileset then are there release delays when we wait for new pictures, or if a person drawing a tileset bails do we try and find somebody that can draw in the same style as they do, or does it become some kind of hellish hybrid of different art styles. It's difficult when we don't have an employee that we can employ for several years, or a person who will stick with the project. People stick with the project, like Baughn's been helping us for quite a long time, but what happens? If Baughn leaves, I do have some trouble with linux and mac support and so on, and other people can help with that, and I'm not sure graphics is the same way where someone can just step in and do the exact same thing, although artists are talented and there's probably someone who can do that, but I don't know if I can count on that or not.

Then there's the legal question, I don't know how to do that properly; I have to make sure I can find someone I can trust who isn't going to lift a glyph from Nintendo without me noticing. So there're a lot of questions, it's not completely ruled out, but there're a lot of questions. The other method would be just to add another 256 characters if I don't just go with some Unicode font or something. And in a sense there's a charm at least with the vanilla, of adding just another 256 characters, because it's an extension that's required, but it still sticks within the same kind of poetic form. But there's going to be like seven people that agree with that assessment and a whole crapload of people that are like 'what the hell are you thinking?' So we're kind of there in a sense ... not super pressing at least, not anymore pressing than adding graphics to the game always was with running out of characters to display the information. But it's certainly already hit that wall in several places, and it's only filling it out more as time goes on.

[MaGicBush]

So does Toady work full-time on Dwarf Fortress?

Yes.

With the income from donations he gets he could easily, as well as add another developer to help with modeling .

No:

Rainseeker:   Let's talk about ASCII characters!

Toady:   Alright.

Rainseeker:    Because your game is ASCII, and ASCII is probably the most fun graphical representation of a game I've ever played. It's definitely old school ... but I think that the complexity of your game totally overwhelms even noticing it's ASCII after a while. Macbeth asked this interesting question; 'As the project gets more complex do you expect that these ASCII character sets won't be able to support the detail you're adding? What are your plans for displaying that information?'

Toady:   It's already at that point, if you've seen the elves versus elephants or goblins versus goats or whatever issues come up ...

Rainseeker:   'Why are those elephants shooting arrows at me? I don't understand!'

Toady:   And there are methods of getting around that to some extent, but eventually you hit a wall. You saw with world generation recently the human sprawl I went with lines and whatever the letter is called (�) when you put an 'a' and an 'e' together for the hill farms, and eventually your bag runs out of ... bag stuff ...

Rainseeker:   Tricks.

Toady:   There's no more tricks in the bags, no more little characters in the bag. And so then you hit that point where you're like 'do you just go over to a tileset at that point? Do you experiment with Unicode stuff? If you add just a new IBM codepage r256 grid characters or whatever ...' If we add another grid of characters that look promising and just stick with that, that's kind of counterproductive in a way, because once you jump up beyond 256 you're free to move about the country at that point and go up to 65'000 or millions or whatever the rewrite entails.

At the same time there's something to be said for the ASCII mode of the game, which I like because I can develop it quickly and I don't have to ... Zach and I drawing is not the same as other people drawing ... or maybe the problem is it's the same as other people drawing who aren't artists. And we can't use other people's tilesets without worrying about legal business, and more so not just legal business but ongoing development; if we've got a tileset then are there release delays when we wait for new pictures, or if a person drawing a tileset bails do we try and find somebody that can draw in the same style as they do, or does it become some kind of hellish hybrid of different art styles. It's difficult when we don't have an employee that we can employ for several years, or a person who will stick with the project. People stick with the project, like Baughn's been helping us for quite a long time, but what happens? If Baughn leaves, I do have some trouble with linux and mac support and so on, and other people can help with that, and I'm not sure graphics is the same way where someone can just step in and do the exact same thing, although artists are talented and there's probably someone who can do that, but I don't know if I can count on that or not.

Then there's the legal question, I don't know how to do that properly; I have to make sure I can find someone I can trust who isn't going to lift a glyph from Nintendo without me noticing. So there're a lot of questions, it's not completely ruled out, but there're a lot of questions. The other method would be just to add another 256 characters if I don't just go with some Unicode font or something. And in a sense there's a charm at least with the vanilla, of adding just another 256 characters, because it's an extension that's required, but it still sticks within the same kind of poetic form. But there's going to be like seven people that agree with that assessment and a whole crapload of people that are like 'what the hell are you thinking?' So we're kind of there in a sense ... not super pressing at least, not anymore pressing than adding graphics to the game always was with running out of characters to display the information. But it's certainly already hit that wall in several places, and it's only filling it out more as time goes on.

Hrm good points I didn't think of. But as with anything in life success involves risks unfortunately, as every game with graphics ever made had to take that step, though after a decade of development on your own I can see not wanting to take that risk and change. Having said that hopefully once the game is feature complete as far as creatures/terrain types/things that use graphics he could find someone(multiple someone's maybe with a kickstart campaign) and setup a contract to finish what's in the game.

[lue]

I for one support our new Unicode overlords, and hope they will share their ways with all.

...but seriously, if Adams ever does switch to Unicode, you can suddenly have ☃ in the tundra and ☄ from the sky. Or perhaps play life-sized chess! Possibilities...

[Boltgun]

Hrm good points I didn't think of. But as with anything in life success involves risks unfortunately, as every game with graphics ever made had to take that step, though after a decade of development on your own I can see not wanting to take that risk and change. Having said that hopefully once the game is feature complete as far as creatures/terrain types/things that use graphics he could find someone(multiple someone's maybe with a kickstart campaign) and setup a contract to finish what's in the game.

Once the game is feature complete I guess Toady will have to ask himself about what comes next and take care of branding and interface. But until then basing your revenue on donations is already a risk.

[Bilge]

And we can't use other people's tilesets without worrying about legal business, and more so not just legal business but ongoing development; if we've got a tileset then are there release delays when we wait for new pictures, or if a person drawing a tileset bails do we try and find somebody that can draw in the same style as they do, or does it become some kind of hellish hybrid of different art styles. It's difficult when we don't have an employee that we can employ for several years, or a person who will stick with the project. People stick with the project, like Baughn's been helping us for quite a long time, but what happens? If Baughn leaves, I do have some trouble with linux and mac support and so on, and other people can help with that, and I'm not sure graphics is the same way where someone can just step in and do the exact same thing, although artists are talented and there's probably someone who can do that, but I don't know if I can count on that or not.

So it's not happening because the lead developer suffers from crippling anxiety?

[Witty]

The notion of Toady hiring outside help has been brought up, discussed and argued about. And the basic conclusion is it just isn't going to happen. Period. Whether the game could be improved dramatically with help is irrelevant if Toady isn't willing or does not want help in the first place. It's his game afterall.

[Torrasque666]

-snip-

So it's not happening because the lead developer suffers from crippling anxiety?

Think about it. What would happen if someone was making tilesets for them and nicked a trademarked logo. As the ones in charge, and the ones with their names on the game, the Adams brothers would get sued. If the Adams brothers get sued, and consequently have to pay shittons in fines(largely crippling their income) and/or remove the game from the public, what will we play?

[Dyret]

The game is better off without them. Try putting together and animating a winged, web-shooting blob made of fire and animate it in a reasonable fashion. Especially one with a regal bearing.

[thvaz]

Stop feeding this troll.

[blue sam3]

And we can't use other people's tilesets without worrying about legal business, and more so not just legal business but ongoing development; if we've got a tileset then are there release delays when we wait for new pictures, or if a person drawing a tileset bails do we try and find somebody that can draw in the same style as they do, or does it become some kind of hellish hybrid of different art styles. It's difficult when we don't have an employee that we can employ for several years, or a person who will stick with the project. People stick with the project, like Baughn's been helping us for quite a long time, but what happens? If Baughn leaves, I do have some trouble with linux and mac support and so on, and other people can help with that, and I'm not sure graphics is the same way where someone can just step in and do the exact same thing, although artists are talented and there's probably someone who can do that, but I don't know if I can count on that or not.

So it's not happening because the lead developer suffers from crippling anxiety?

No, it's not happening because it's absurdly stupid. You know, what with the game not operating in any kind of sensible geometry, and the impossible-to-draw randomly-generated creatures, and ...

[MaGicBush]

Stop feeding this troll.

How exactly is he a troll by asking questions related to a commonly wanted addition to the game?

[Niyazov]

I for one support our new Unicode overlords, and hope they will share their ways with all.

...but seriously, if Adams ever does switch to Unicode, you can suddenly have ☃ in the tundra and ☄ from the sky. Or perhaps play life-sized chess! Possibilities...

yeah and 🏩 🏩 🏩 in every human city

(word of god has it we'll never have to worry about 💩 though)