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Author Topic: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?  (Read 3689 times)

lilopuppy

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I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« on: October 13, 2013, 06:41:39 am »

I'm fairly new to the game. I've spent countless hours reading the wiki. Went through various youtube vids and internet guides. I don't get confused by the interface anymore. I kinda sort of know what is the "goal" if you will, to the game. But I'm finding it hard to get there, you know. I can go to the initial parts of fortress building, but I often hit the wall sometimes. I just don't know how to get there. I just find scratching my head, what am I suppose to do now?

1. I get easily overwhelmed by migratory dwarves, like, what am I suppose to do with these dwarrows? What skills should I assign to them? Should I get a military now, or? What? I need masons, so who do I pick amongst these cheesemakers?

2. Overall fortress design/plan/structure. Like, I think I have zero sense on what is a good fortress that will happily house my dwarves? Where should I build the bedroom? How should I build my bedrooms? How many beds? Is it below my stockpile floor? Hey wait, why do I have a stockpile room 4 z levels above my workshop area? And the raw materials are still on the first floor? How many farms do I have again?

3. God, I have so many fucking turkeys. And they're killing my war dogs. (is it just me, or getting wardogs at the start isn't efficient, as you can assign any random dwarf to train the war dog?)

4. What should I do? I just feel so lost. What do I do next? How do I do next? Yeah, sure, I'll finish my fortress later, I'm not that inspired yet.

Any help will be really appreciated.
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Sirbug

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2013, 07:39:36 am »

1. Never too early to start a military. Although, you probably won't want soliders with no military skill. When wave arrive, inspect every newcomer. Look at his skills. If he has something you need, leave him alone. Otherwise, assign him something you need. You can hardly have too much crafters, medics or farmers, even if they start newbies. Those with military skills - assign into squads, one day you will equip them and send into battle.

2. Design as you please. There is noise, so try to put bedrooms levels away from mining operations and workshops. One bed per bedroom, chest/coffer and cabinet (Or so I do). I have level-wide grid of 3x3 rooms separated by 1 tile-wide corridor, but it was proven to be bad for pathfinding. I don't think you should have any kind of "stockpile level" - have workshops/furnaces surrounded by raw materials. Have finished goods stockpile close to trade deport, but exclude "armor, footwear, headwear and legwear" from it and put those into separate, or you get overflown by clothes.

3. It is inefficient, unless you somehow need war dogs NOW.

4. After you create military, dig deep below, until you find cavern. That's where fun start. Unless fun come to you from surface.

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Cool, but wouldn't this likely lead to tongues having a '[SPEACH]' tag, and thus via necromancy we would have nearly unkillable reanimated tongues following necromancers spamming 'it is sad but not unexpected'?

WarRoot

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2013, 07:53:55 am »

Don't fret. That's my tip :D
The game isn't hard enough to warrant microing your dwarves.

2. Design as you please. There is noise, so try to put bedrooms levels away from mining operations and workshops.

As far as I know workshops don't make noise currently, but that might be back in next version.
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Sirbug

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2013, 07:55:08 am »

Even better then. Still vertical design with each level dedicated to something is easiest to navigate.
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Cool, but wouldn't this likely lead to tongues having a '[SPEACH]' tag, and thus via necromancy we would have nearly unkillable reanimated tongues following necromancers spamming 'it is sad but not unexpected'?

Obsidian Soul

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2013, 08:22:07 am »

My advice, with pictures:

1. Use Dwarf Therapist. Unless you're masochistic, it's the only way to properly manage your dwarves and the flood of migrants. What I do is when a new wave of migrants come in, I pause the game and examine them in Dwarf Therapist.

First thing I do is pick out those who are very good at something. I usually disable hauling and other manual labor for them so they can focus on their specialties and not get killed by randomly going out in seiges to retrieve tattered socks. These are the elites and will become legendary someday. They help the fortress by churning out high quality items for trade and to keep my other dwarves happy.

Next I pick out the dwarves I need from those showing an inclination for it. For example, I need two more miners, so I pick two dwarves with the highest skill points in it from the group. I also examine them for military suitability. Those with martial skills (or at least are strong or agile) get assigned to my squads, replacing earlier additions who aren't as skilled if necessary. Don't worry if none fit the criteria yet, pick one at random, you can replace them later on when the next migrant wave comes.

The rest of the group I set to hauling/cleaning/tending animals/harvesting only. I disable all their other jobs if they aren't good enough so they won't waste materials on their low quality stuff.

2. I divide my fortresses into several parts. Each with elements that work better close together.

First is the entrance, which includes the trade depot, barracks, hospitals, cages (for animals and captured enemies alike), and stockpiles of items I intend to trade away. It includes the most important part of the fortress - the gate. It must be well fortified. Wide enough that it can allow trade caravan wagons to enter but also it must be easy to seal everything at a moment's notice. I usually do this using a zigzagging 3x3 road interspersed with stretches of traps and a series of drawbridges. A variant of the "airlock" design.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Second are the living areas, which include multiple levels of bedrooms (they take a lot of space). Above them are the kitchens (including fisheries and butcher's workshops) and food storage areas (along with poultry and nests for quick harvesting, and pens for non-grazing food animals like pigs), and the dining halls. This is the heart of my fortress, with everything else radiating from it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Third are the noble quarters (usually on the highest levels of my fortresses), with the throne rooms, recreational areas (sculpture gardens, etc), and wells.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fourth are the workshop areas. Usually I place these a few z levels below the living areas. These are square rooms with different workshops in the middle and immediately behind them the stockpiles for raw materials. I may also dig up multiple layers of additional stockpiles below them.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fifth are the farming areas. These are usually aboveground or close to the surface. This has pastures, fields, seed stockpiles, and when my fort is old enough, mushroom fields where I let them grow out to provide me with lumber.  I may also divert a water source here, build a well and a fishing area.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lastly are the catacombs. I usually place them in a single level, somewhere below or away from everything.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is all just a guide for me though. I may vary the designs when needed to suit terrain or aesthetics. Because at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is the gate. How you design the rest of your fort is up to you really. In my fortresses for example, every dwarf gets his own room (a 2x3) with his own cabinet, bed, door, and chest as it keeps them happiest. But other players use communal dormitories which is cheaper and keep them happy by other means.

Note that I don't build them all at once. I build the basic ones first but leave enough space to add the rest of the elements of each fortress "subdivision" as I need them.

3. Treat wardogs as disposable early warning signals. Same with cats. The only people I have wardogs assigned to are those which have to go out at times (e.g. woodcutters, beekeepers) to keep them a bit safer. They breed too quickly to mourn their passing much, so don't. Extra animals you butcher. But keep a breeding pair or two always. Both turkeys and dogs don't need to graze, so pasture them in separate areas anywhere you like (preferably out of the way of heavy traffic to avoid people adopting them). And regularly cull the group for meat. I also separate female poultry and give them individual nests for eggs.

4. Once you have a fairly stable bustling fortress, start building, improving, beautifying, and experimenting. Explore caverns, branch out on a new industry (try giant cave spider silk farming for example), build better quarters, pave roads, tame and breed exotic cave animals for war or food, device nefarious new traps to kill invaders, build a tower made entirely out of gold, etc.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 08:29:01 am by Obsidian Soul »
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mirrizin

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2013, 09:16:07 am »

1. It's never too soon to start a military, especially once you get a migrant or two who are competent with a weapon, any weapon. Hunters make great marksdwarves. Make sure every dwarf has their own bedroom, I find this is the hardest part of dealing with migrants. And periodically expand your dining room. Plan for a max of roughly 200 dwarves, in my experience.

2. Don't fret. While maximum efficiency is nice, it's hardly required. I'm fond of the St John's cross layout in the wiki, as it is easy to build and expand as more migrants arrive. I've also found that two to four modest farm plots are sufficient for a fortress. I like to have two underground and two surface, and run humongous surpluses every year.

3. Start butchering turkeys. I think that the game pretty much requires an ongoing slaughtering operation if you don't want to be drowning in sheep.

4. If you're new to the game, focus on survival. That's enough work for now. Once you have a perfectly self sustainable fortress that is impervious to invasion, then you will have leisure for an existential crisis.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2013, 10:18:26 am by mirrizin »
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mirrizin

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2013, 09:55:38 am »

If we're showing off, here's a link to my current "succeeded to the point of boredom." It's a pretty standard layout, go down a few layers and you can see the workshops to food areas to bedrooms succession.

http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11900-worksack
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lilopuppy

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 10:10:36 am »



Don't fret. That's my tip :D
The game isn't hard enough to warrant microing your dwarves.

2. Design as you please. There is noise, so try to put bedrooms levels away from mining operations and workshops.

As far as I know workshops don't make noise currently, but that might be back in next version.

This is almost as bad as ladder anxiety. But I'll try not to fret.

Never thought people would actually reply. Thanks. :D
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LittleQuick

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2013, 11:18:41 am »

I know there have already been good replies but here's from one n00b to another.
I've been playing off and on for two years, I still don't know everything but reading wikis and watching videos are good places to start. I find it almost better to research as you go. Looking up lists of minerals and their purposes will help when you need to know what will be best for what. (Bridges, walls, etc.)

Right away, for your turkey problem, maybe you want to recruit some people to make some traps and trap spam the turkeys out there? I prefer Hunting Dogs over War Dogs. Hunting Dogs can sneak around and get in some good damage, plus they don't run into battle unexpectedly. Every embark I always bring two hunting dogs.

When I first started I didn't really know or care about Dwarf happiness but now I realize it's kind of important for overall fortress operations. A happy dwarf is a working dwarf. I would download Dwarf Therapist and give it a try, it definitely changes the game. You can figure out which Urist McCheesemaker will be better for masonry from there.

When I build bedrooms I always make them 3x3 (Not including doorway.) I have started moving onto 4x4 bedrooms, eventually all my dwarves will get a full set up room. (Bed, Chair, Table, Chest, Weapon Rack, Armor Stand, etc.) Makes them happier to have a nice room. Nobles I even throw in some awesome golden statues or something in there just to make them feel better about themselves.


Personally I try to start to making my military as early as possible. Not embark (Usually.) but First or Second migration waves. It's good to train a few crossbow Dwarves because I feel like a group of dwarves spamming bolts is more efficient for keeping everyone alive then letting them accidentally run into battle one by one. To use up your time, and finding your creative self, find a way to protect your fortess using bridges, traps, and killboxes where your dwarves can easily spam anything to death. Every time I have tried to make an awesome sword/axe/hammer army they've always gotten beaten to death and I feel stupid. Every time I'm under siege and a bunch of goblins with maces run into the tunnels, they get struck down by crossbows before getting far. Making a superior defense is sometimes a really good offense. (Be sure to pack your dwarves some lunch!)
Plus knowing your going to be building an army you should find out how to make better weapons for them to use, and having a good hospital set up for the wounded ones.

I'm fairly new to the game. I've spent countless hours reading the wiki. Went through various youtube vids and internet guides. I don't get confused by the interface anymore. I kinda sort of know what is the "goal" if you will, to the game. But I'm finding it hard to get there, you know. I can go to the initial parts of fortress building, but I often hit the wall sometimes. I just don't know how to get there. I just find scratching my head, what am I suppose to do now?

1. I get easily overwhelmed by migratory dwarves, like, what am I suppose to do with these dwarrows? What skills should I assign to them? Should I get a military now, or? What? I need masons, so who do I pick amongst these cheesemakers?

2. Overall fortress design/plan/structure. Like, I think I have zero sense on what is a good fortress that will happily house my dwarves? Where should I build the bedroom? How should I build my bedrooms? How many beds? Is it below my stockpile floor? Hey wait, why do I have a stockpile room 4 z levels above my workshop area? And the raw materials are still on the first floor? How many farms do I have again?

3. God, I have so many fucking turkeys. And they're killing my war dogs. (is it just me, or getting wardogs at the start isn't efficient, as you can assign any random dwarf to train the war dog?)

4. What should I do? I just feel so lost. What do I do next? How do I do next? Yeah, sure, I'll finish my fortress later, I'm not that inspired yet.

Any help will be really appreciated.
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Togre

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 01:05:26 pm »

You've got some very good responses here so I'll just give 2 simple encouragements:

1). Write down some things you want to do--Military, hospital, wood & wood working stock piles, armor & armor storage, working butcher shop, turkey cull, bedrooms, whatever.  Then focus on 1 thing at a time.  Read the wiki, be inefficient, but learn how to do that one thing and make it work how you like.  Then move on at your own pace.

2). Don't worry about messing up big time.  Sure you may get reamed because you don't have a military or run out of booze.  That's part of learning.  There's a reason its called !!FUN!!.  The lessons learned but deadly mistakes stay with you long and are more fun to overcome.  It will help you learn what priorities you need when starting a fort better than any tutorial or advice.

Have a blast!
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"Hey guys, you know how I've been repeatedly injuring you over and over again for the purpose of training up a team of high skilled doctors? Yeah well we didn't actually need to do that."

Oddible

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 02:08:15 pm »

1. I echo the recommendation to get Dwarf Therapist.  It has a relatively new feature that shows you ideal role percentages based on dwarf attributes so you know who to make your cheesemaker. 

2. Check out this for some ideas:  http://imgur.com/a/XbAEg

3. Why don't you butcher your turkeys? Also, if they're killing your war dogs maybe you need a new pasture plan.  Check out the wiki to see how much space each animal needs and start separating them.  Also, why are your war dogs near your turkeys?  Put a 1x1 pasture for your war dogs near the entrance hall to your fortress to guard for thieves.

4. Hit random page on the wiki and build that.  Inspiration is where you find it or the product of necessity.  If you have no needs, make sure you're prepared for a siege first (look up defense options from hallways and construction to traps to militia).  Then start building wealth and get your economy going - look for veins of precious ores and gems and start cutting and encrusting stuff (this will cause some fun as your wealth will go up and you'll get your siege).  Make sure you have a functional hospital set up.  Get a windmill going.  Get some food diversity. 

Someone earlier mentioned that they make all their bedrooms 3x3 or 4x4, this is really unnecessary and makes for LONG paths for dwarfs to get to work.  Most are happy to have a 1x3 room with a bed, coffer and cabinet. The nobles will need bigger, better rooms. 
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Drazinononda

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 04:08:56 pm »

My experience with DF is that there's no better way to learn than by doing. Then again, that's my experience with everything... anyway my point is, wikis and videos and forums are all well and good if you need to learn how to do a specific thing or need advice on a particular design point or whatever, but when it comes down to overall fort design, mission and vision, nobody else can provide that for you. There's no wrong way to play DF, so just do what you want; the learning will come with time.
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Children you rescue shouldn't behave like rabid beasts.  I guess your regular companions shouldn't act like rabid beasts either.
I think that's a little more impossible than I'm likely to have time for.

itg

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 04:31:10 pm »

1. As everyone else said, military is a very good option for new migrants, but even letting them idle for a while can be fine. Many players (myself included) feel a sort of compulsion to make sure all dwarves are busy, all the time, but that's just a psychological thing.

2. Dwarves are so ridiculously productive that literally any fortress layout will be successful, as long as you can defend it. Designing an efficient fortress can be fun, though. Since dwarves move as fast on stairs as on flat ground, the most efficient designs tend to built around a central staircase, using lots of z-levels and rarely straying far from the stairway.

3. Your animals will only fight if they are crammed together. Try putting them in multiple pastures. Also, butcher those turkeys.

4. Have you explored all the industries yet? Have you explored all three caverns? Have you mined any adamantine yet? If no to the latter two, dig deeper.


As long as we're showing off, here's my best fortress: http://mkv25.net/dfma/map-11838-heartmine. I used an unconventional donut-shaped layout around a central death pit. Every dwarf has a personal bedroom/tomb, which is actually really good for producing happy thoughts. Don't go below level 8, because there are spoilers down there.

Oddible

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 05:31:57 pm »

2. Dwarves are so ridiculously productive that literally any fortress layout will be successful, as long as you can defend it. Designing an efficient fortress can be fun, though. Since dwarves move as fast on stairs as on flat ground, the most efficient designs tend to built around a central staircase, using lots of z-levels and rarely straying far from the stairway.

The advantage here is that the difference between an insanely tall staircase and an insanely long hall is that you can expand on 2 planes (x and y) from your staircase (z) but from an insanely long hallway (x) you can only efficiently expand on one plane (y).  Thanks for mentioning this - this has been a major flaw in my design and I almost typed up a message that refuted what you were saying, to claim that a square (as wide as it is tall) is a more efficient design, but then I got to thinking about expansion from the central corridor. 

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Button

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Re: I'm having dwarven's block. Help?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 08:49:14 am »

My experience with DF is that there's no better way to learn than by doying.

Fix't

On top of what others have said, my advice is to not be shy about using staircases frickin everywhere. A lot of folks, even the experienced players, make central staircases and have all their hallways be flat, even if the hallways are one on top of another. This is Human design. Dwarves are comfortable in the earth, so when reasonable you should make their hallways out of up/down staircases. It makes pathing so much faster.

Other than that, my advice is:
[ul]
  • Breach the caverns ASAP, seal them off, and dig out a gigantic underground tree farm.
  • If you decide to make a greenhouse, dig the greenhouse a square away from the rest of your farms, and don't breach it from  underground until you have it ceiling'd off
  • Learn to work with minecarts, particularly for stockpiling and liquid transport.
  • It is never too early to have a hospital up and running.
[/ul]
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