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Author Topic: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT  (Read 56910 times)

Girlinhat

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #285 on: October 20, 2013, 09:26:46 pm »

I'd suggest updating the manuals, including all the questions we've had to ask :P

Draxis

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #286 on: October 20, 2013, 09:29:42 pm »

I plan to write a guide of some sort, if I get the time, which will probably have an emphasis on the undocumented things.
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Anvilfolk

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #287 on: October 20, 2013, 10:53:18 pm »

A guide would be great, or even someone making a YT video?

Also, a singleplayer test-thing would be great. Finally got some time and decided to try this out today, but I have no idea what I'm doing.

Also, I noticed how the ship files are actually really simple. Perhaps it wouldn't be too hard to work on a more accessible ship builder programthing?

From what I read and tried today, this looks really, really cool, but it's so hard to get into :(

Girlinhat

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #288 on: October 20, 2013, 11:13:47 pm »

You'd think a youtube would be good for this, but being turn-based, you'd pretty much have to play a 1v1 using some sort of dropbox system to very quickly upload orders and download turns, as well as a command on the game itself to close the currently open game map and open the most recently available game map.  Otherwise, a lot of the video would simply be waiting on turns to be finished, or else a LOT of editing to skip the downtime...

Actually, my idea was a good idea.  SuicideJunkie, think there's any way to link the savegame folder to some sort of Dropbox program for quicker handling?

ekolis

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #289 on: October 20, 2013, 11:30:53 pm »

I thought I'd share some of my own designs for everyone's enjoyment/edification... :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Barrage class Gunship

The Barrage is a defensive design I created to counter SJ's assault on my base in the seemingly neverending Fab Three game. It was based on one of SJ's designs, the Inferno, though unlike the Inferno it lacks a reactor. It boasts high firepower at long range, and a large reserve of energy, though it is not very fast or maneuverable. Several Barrages were able to significantly weaken SJ's cobbled-together Vorcha class cruiser, which has a massive amount of shielding and was the bane of entire fleets earlier in the game.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cockroach class Fighter

The Cockroach was one of the first designs I created in Fab Three. It's not very strong or fast, but it can turn about reasonably well, and has surprisingly strong defenses for a ship its size. It was used early on for harassing the enemy, and later for point defense vs. missiles.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

D'Deridex class Battleship

I created the D'Deridex for a round-robin battleship tournament between myself, SJ, and se5a. Each of us was pitted against each of the other two players in a game in which we got two of our own design and one of the design created by the player who was not participating in that game. The D'Deridex, of course, is inspired by the Romulan warbirds from Star Trek: The Next Generation. It boasts high maneuverability and forward/rear acceleration, especially for a ship its size, though the strafe thrust leaves something to be desired - not that that's much of a problem with the heavy laser turrets pointing in practically every direction and the aforementioned high turn rate. Sadly, I lost both of my games. Incidentally, SJ's design was the Tunguska, a perfectly symmetrical triangular design inspired by Schlock Mercenary (I dubbed it the "Triforce"), while se5a's design was an impractical-looking design with a detachable medium fabricator, which turned out to be more practical than it looked due to its high speed without the fabber attached. I did destroy se5a's fabber early on, at least!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hyaaah! class Frigate

Continuing on with the Zelda theme, this is the design I used in a similar game vs. dumbluck, in which we each got two of our own design and one of the opponent's. Due to it being a basic melee and not a fabber war, I decided not to install a reactor. Unfortunately, dumbluck did install a reactor on his design, and his was faster, so he could have simply outrun me and waited several hundred turns for my batteries to die. Fortunately, he was sporting and did not do so. Unfortunately, he won the battle anyway. As for the design itself, it boasts incredibly high turn rate - it can spin to any facing in one turn. For this reason it has only forward facing weaponry. Kind of reminds you of Link, doesn't it? :) I do wish I had installed two heavy lasers, though, instead of a heavy and a turbo - no point in carrying a shorter ranged weapon if you're going to be staying at long range, and no point having a longer ranged weapon that does less DPS if you're going to close in!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kirby class Gunship

I think you can tell by now that I like Nintendo games :) The Kirby is named for its ability to absorb energy from weapons fire using its nearly complete coating of absorption armor, then fire it back using its lasers. It's not very fast or maneuverable, and even the firepower leaves a bit to be desired, but man is it sturdy!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Newcombe class Missile

Named after Duke Nukem (if he were British), the Newcombe is an armored missile capable of soaking PD fire. It's even shaped like a mushroom cloud, too! Just be careful where you aim it, because the turn rate is horrendous.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sapper class Drone

The Sapper is an EMP drone designed to get in quick and disable enemy shields. It's equipped with absorption armor to soak PD fire (as well as replenish its energy a bit from the EMP blast), and it has excellent strafe thrust to track down elusive targets.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sniper class Fighter

The Sniper is a fighter designed not for dogfighting, but for long-range engagements. It's not very fast, but it doesn't need to be - it just sits at maximum range and snipes away from behind its armor plate with its medium laser. Some Snipers I refitted with absorption coatings for added protection, though that did slow them down further. I do wish I had included some retro thrust, though... retreat is very important when you're a long range attacker!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Swiss Army Knife class Base Expander

The Swiss Army Knife is a generic connector module for constructing addons to bases. It has three each of the best class docking ports and docking clamps for maximum versatility, as well as a bridge to add to your base's repair capacity (though due to the lack of capacitors, you will need to manually enable the bridge after connecting the module).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wrangler class Mobile Recycler

The Wrangler is a mobile recycler ship based on SJ's Cowboy design. It has high maneuverability and acceleration for tracking down fast-moving debris - as well as for quickly escaping from a battle zone! Since it is too large to fit in a drydock, it is equipped with a docking port, so you can dock it to your base even without an expensive spacedock.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

ZapSat class Defense Satellite

Another design from early in Fab Three, the ZapSat (name swiped from Star Control) is a defensive satellite designed to shoot down enemy missiles. It has one laser pointing in all but one direction, so it doesn't need much in the way of maneuverability. Depsite having five lasers, it does have only for CNC points, though, so it cannot fire all of them at once. The ZapSat has no defenses, but it is very small, so only lighter weapons and missiles will have much of a chance of damaging it.
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SuicideJunkie

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #290 on: October 20, 2013, 11:37:52 pm »

Girlinhat:
I doubt it would speed things up much, and would involve rewriting a lot of infrastructure.
Shooer is currently spamming turns in the oharegrudgematch game at a crazy rate of 6-8 minutes a turn.
I suspect that's mostly due to it being a two player game (possibly with in-person nagging when someone is taking too long to give orders :D)

For notification as soon as the turn is available, you can join the #spaceempires IRC channel on freenode and idle.
I've got my autohost set to announce there after uploading to PBW.
IRC log:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anvilfolk:
PBW doesn't actually care how may players are in a game, so it is perfectly legitimate to start a game with one player and a base with four large fabricators for testing things with ;)

Yeah, ship files are just a list of components, coordinates, angle, and enabled/disabled flag.

The mod files are .eggs, which are essentially a subset of XML, plus backreferences.
Throw an XML parser at 'em, and then in a second pass, convert <value type=object> values into a reference to the object with the matching object ID.
I have a component editor for wrangling the mod in bulk.  Its pretty low level, but since you're posting here at B12, I'm sure you won't be afraid of ascii-art hex maps and menus.  I can put that up somewhere in the morning since it has no real dependencies, just Term::Readkey and XML::Tiny.
Only problem is that on windows it will eat CPU watching the raw keyboard state to pick up arrow key presses.

The next two things I want to do, due to popular demand are A) Pick-up-component key to change the component in hand to the target component while deleting what's in the design  B) Support for multiple-components-in-hand  C) Using B, loading a ship from disk to the components-in-hand  D) Some sort of group select so a large chunk of ship can be picked up and moved at once.
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Girlinhat

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #291 on: October 20, 2013, 11:57:01 pm »

For ship designing, I'd try what you've got in the fabricator.  A list of component types on the left, and actual components on the right, being able to click to select, or use arrow keys to scroll lists or enter/exit a parent group.

Shooer

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #292 on: October 21, 2013, 12:41:12 am »

40 Turns in a afternoon I think is a good number for a 1vs1 of two people across the hall from each other.

Learned a lot though pretty quickly.  Like not to use irises on larger disruptors, and we both over estimated the initial engagement window and flew past each other. 
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SuicideJunkie

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #293 on: October 21, 2013, 01:16:55 am »

Right now, the designer uses the same menus just with a different layout in order to fit within a fixed amount of text and not push the stats off the screen.
What I really should do I suppose, is rejigger the frame manager code and have a skinny component select menuview down the right or left side of the screen.


For those interested, the story of Ed's Barrage class starts way back on turn 10 with the fighter seen in the youtube video
First ship I built in that game, and sized to pack into the drydock two at a time.
They were able to romp through space without fearing the smaller drone craft available at the time.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Eventually Se5a had enough of that and designed a fighter immune to my furies.  With a hex shield in the core high manoeuvrability and good gunpod on the front, they were too tough to batter down before my furies were crippled by return fire.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
The Inferno design came about as a response to that.  I needed something with enough punch to knock out the hex shield, and tough enough to take the return fire.   Thanks to the turbolaser and two mediums, it was able to batter down the hex shield in two rounds, and then wreck the hull over the next two rounds if it stayed in range.  That would drain half the energy storage and overheat the guns, but it was worth it to damage a polearm class ship.  Due to their high speed it was still tough to get a kill shot since they would start zipping away as soon as I got my guns on target, but the threat was there and I managed to damage a few.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


The Vorcha came about as a megaproject slowly assembled inside the armor ring of my base, just $12000 at a time since the old fabbers had lower build limits.
The side deflector "wings" provide some protection against side shots, but mostly they are there to act as ECM generators by widening my ship and allowing shots to pass harmlessly through the gap.  The big pile of disabled shield generators on the nose are for emergencies since even without them running, energy is in short supply.
Just below the head of the ship you can see two clamps holding capacitor lollipops.  Since the ship couldn't dock, it would exchange power pellets with the base when it needed a recharge.  I once even had a scavenger drone fly some capacitors out to it to save time, but the combat-docking hijinks made the whole effort pretty questionable.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

After the Vorcha proved its worth in smashing through fleets of small craft and putting the hurt on larger ships with the heavy lasers, Ed needed something to stop it, and the Barrage was born.
He deployed three of them next to his base, and I blundered in thinking they were easy targets.  Vorcha quickly came under very heavy fire and was forced to go to emergency power on the shields right away.  The starboard ECM generator got blown off when the shields buckled, making things worse and forcing me to divert even more power to raise all the shields :D.  Hiding in a cloud of debris from one of Ed's other ships took a bit of the edge off, and all of my combat worthy ships were sent in on high speed strafing runs despite the risk.
Fortunately Ed only blew away one of my infernos before focusing back on Vorcha.

The design I rushed out the door to rescue poor Vorcha was the Hawk:
Super-heavy shielding on the front designed to keep the ship alive long enough to make one strafing run pass against the pack of 3 Barrages (6 heavy lasers dish out 120 damage and flatten 2 shield generators each turn)
The large pack of heavy lasers was so it could shoot back at long range with enough firepower to crush a barrage as fast as possible.
Design sacrifices:
Weak power system (no reactors, only enough combat endurance for a few passes)
Relatively weak aft shields (thinner aft shielding than an inferno, on a ship 3x the price)
No rearguard weapons and only moderate turn rate
No docking capability (At the time I didn't have a spacedock, but was planning to save up and build one to accommodate the ship if it survived.)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 07:35:24 pm by SuicideJunkie »
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Rainbows

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #294 on: October 21, 2013, 01:25:33 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Did I mention I have little idea of how to design bigger ships?

Also are spacedocks limited by size? Because they look too thin to hold any large craft.

also adding a fighter
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2013, 01:46:54 pm by Rainbows »
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SuicideJunkie

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #295 on: October 21, 2013, 04:02:10 pm »

You only have to get one hull segment of the target into the field of a spacedock, although that segment must be one of the largest hull bits in the ship. 
If you grab the ship by a size 2 hull component, then any hull 3 segments in the ship will tear loose because the hull 2 can't provide a connection to the larger hull 3.
Structural connections are set in the mod, but I've set them logically such that hull size X can hold anything of size X or smaller.
3 can hold 3 or 2 or 1.  2 can hold 2 or 1.  But 2 cannot hold 3.

The main exception to that scheme is armor coatings.  Only armor, clamps and docks can hold armor coatings.  (the clamps and docks are allowed to hold it so you can salvage it and weld it back on to new ships)
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Girlinhat

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #296 on: October 21, 2013, 06:21:47 pm »

Part Suggestion: Afterburners.
Considering what I can gather from the code and how to make things easier, here's the idea.
You install them as Deactivated.
Turn 1 you activate them.
Turn 2 they are active, and will provide a LARGE amount of thrust.
The energy upkeep for them is hefty, but they're coded such that as soon as they pay any energy upkeep they become overheated for a number of rounds.
At the end of turn 2, they shut down whether you've actually accelerated or not.
Beginning on turn 3, they're overheated and need time before they can be activated again.

SuicideJunkie

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #297 on: October 21, 2013, 06:41:18 pm »

Part Suggestion: Afterburners.
Considering what I can gather from the code and how to make things easier, here's the idea.
You install them as Deactivated.
Turn 1 you activate them.
Turn 2 they are active, and will provide a LARGE amount of thrust.
The energy upkeep for them is hefty, but they're coded such that as soon as they pay any energy upkeep they become overheated for a number of rounds.
At the end of turn 2, they shut down whether you've actually accelerated or not.
Beginning on turn 3, they're overheated and need time before they can be activated again.
Something like that could be done, in terms of a high energy cost super-thruster, but thrusters aren't tracked individually; it would just jack up the general cost of moving forwards and allow you to accelerate really fast.
Each of the two side thrusters on your fighters for example, would give a pittance of acceleration individually, but combined they balance and are far more effective.

The way I'm thinking of achieving that sort of booster thing would be implementing recoil from guns and weapon hits, and then having the afterburner be a high recoil weapon that auto-fires at nothing whenever it is enabled.
A solid rocket booster would then only need a flag that prevents it from being disabled. Its weapon shot would be placed so that it does 1 damage per turn to the engine over time until it runs out of health.
Should be particularly handy for missiles too.


PS: turn 18 commentary is now up
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Girlinhat

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #298 on: October 21, 2013, 06:59:14 pm »

I find your assessment of tactics to be theoretically interesting, as well as finding my future tactics to be practically interesting.

USEC_OFFICER

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Re: THANCS - a Newtonian space TBT
« Reply #299 on: October 21, 2013, 07:03:35 pm »

I find your assessment of tactics to be theoretically interesting, as well as finding my future tactics to be practically interesting.

I feel like we're playing the Russo-Japanese War right now and then next game we'll all go, "Shit, bayonets aren't as effective as I thought." Just that kind of vibe I'm getting right now.
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