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[Whivy]

Well thanks for your answers, i'll try to kill the hag tonight then.

[Majestic7]

Yeah, I feel the same; the game doesn't really reward you much for success. In a way it reminds me of Oblivion, the tougher you get the tougher the enemies get, negating the benefit of leveling up. Beating bosses likewise gives you nothing... So it would be nice if you get get at least some permanent, village-related boosts from your success occasionally, so even hero mortality wouldn't be the main problem.

Likewise, would be nice to sometimes get higher level heroes right from the coach. Some kind of (your lowest level hero)-2 formula or the like.

[Whivy]

Yeah, I feel the same; the game doesn't really reward you much for success. In a way it reminds me of Oblivion, the tougher you get the tougher the enemies get, negating the benefit of leveling up. Beating bosses likewise gives you nothing... So it would be nice if you get get at least some permanent, village-related boosts from your success occasionally, so even hero mortality wouldn't be the main problem.

Likewise, would be nice to sometimes get higher level heroes right from the coach. Some kind of (your lowest level hero)-2 formula or the like.

Yeah that's what i was thinking too. I'm not sure i will have the willpower to go back to level 1 dungeon if my level 5 team is wiped out. Feel a bit like starting over, minus the rusty equipment.

[Cthulhu]

I've got through quite a few weeks now, and I still feel the biggest problem is the lack of a feeling of progress. I come off every mission without feeling like I've achieved something, I've sort of just done a mission to keep things about equal with some small advances or back steps depending on how lucky I've been.

I'm all for hard (the harder the better!), but you need rewards and progress of some sort.

Really it's all down to RNG. While something like DCSS uses RNG for everything, it manages to feel mostly fair. With this you just get a few crits or tempting goblets in a row and you've just lost your entire team. Turn order would help with this (as you'd be able to plan more) or just toning down the amount of stress abilities/crits.

The issue between this and more traditional roguelikes is that roguelikes tend to have means of circumventing the randomness.  You're really only beholden to the RNG in the very early game, before you've gathered the resources to survive challenges.  Even then, almost any death in DCSS or Nethack or other "true" Roguelikes can be traced back to some bad decision you made regarding resource usage or tactics.  That's why it feels fair.  Classic roguelikes are about using tactics and resource management to overcome randomized challenges.

You don't even need to look into it that far.  If DCSS were as random as people like to think, you wouldn't be able to streak two or three or five or twelve wins in a row.

This is different.  Random chance in this can absolutely ruin your game with no meaningful decision on your part.  It's more like FTL, where a bad sector layout or an unfortunate combination of weapons on an enemy ship can make the game unwinnable.

[Whivy]

Yeah well i was on my way to kill the old hag with a mercenary, vestal, occultist and highwayman, and i encoutered one pack of three rabies dogs shit, then just after, one pack of four of theses things. The first encounter landed, not one, not two, but 9 critical strike on my team in 3 round (and they dodge more than 50% of my attack) so the second pack ended by killing my near level 3 occultist. So yeah, i'm kinda wondering if i will not just stop this game.

[Fikes]

If the enemy landed 9 critical hits and your boys were near death, why not just flee?

I don't really see this game as all that difficult possibly because I am quick to cut and run. In fact any time my guys get surprised and disorganized I retreat and try again.

I am taking the game slowly and haven't done much of note even though it is week 15 or something.

[nenjin]

If the enemy landed 9 critical hits and your boys were near death, why not just flee?

I don't really see this game as all that difficult possibly because I am quick to cut and run. In fact any time my guys get surprised and disorganized I retreat and try again.

I am taking the game slowly and haven't done much of note even though it is week 15 or something.

The main issue to start is money. For me, a reasonably provisioned short or medium run starts at $3k gold. So you actually need to make, PLUS ~$2k to $3k it might cost to pay down the stress on guys you want to keep. THEN anything after that is profit.

So, just running away and/or quitting the dungeon often won't leave you breaking even. Late game when you've got $30k gold or w/e, it's not a big deal. In the first few weeks though, bad runs like that start you on a downward spiral. I personally hate just recruiting 4 guys and sending them in with no provisions, hoping to turn a profit. But you can be reduced to that in the early game with a few exceptionally bad runs. Especially if it's in the first fight or two of the run.

[Zangi]

You do have progress in the way of heirloom items... that is, if you make it back. 
If money is that tight, you'll have to cut some of your keepers out and/or let them languish in depravity till your financial situation is improved.

In a green short run, you can clear it with 8 food, 4 torches and 1-2 shovels with 4 fresh ones.  Or at the least, retreat when appropriate.
Green medium runs, I regularly do them with 12 food, 6 torches and 2-3 shovels.  Of course, retreating when it gets bad...
...  If you do bring extra stuff like keys, bandages and medicine, they pay out for themselves in extra stuff/gold, if you know where to slot em.  Short runs, 1 of each and medium runs, 2 of each.  Should come out to paying for themselves and providing extra heirlooms by the end, if you manage to use at least half of em.

[nenjin]

You do have progress in the way of heirloom items... that is, if you make it back. 
If money is that tight, you'll have to cut some of your keepers out and/or let them languish in depravity till your financial situation is improved.

In a green short run, you can clear it with 8 food, 4 torches and 1-2 shovels with 4 fresh ones.  Or at the least, retreat when appropriate.
Green medium runs, I regularly do them with 12 food, 6 torches and 2-3 shovels.  Of course, retreating when it gets bad...
...  If you do bring extra stuff like keys, bandages and medicine, they pay out for themselves in extra stuff/gold, if you know where to slot em.  Short runs, 1 of each and medium runs, 2 of each.  Should come out to paying for themselves and providing extra heirlooms by the end, if you manage to use at least half of em.

They pay for themselves if:
-you know what the right items go with what curios
-the right curios spawn (Got one run where I had 5 sarcophagi spawn.)
-you don't decide to ditch them when inventory space fills up with 1 stack of gems or w/e.

[Majestic7]

I don't really see heirlooms as rewards, because they just open up more options for spending money. Spending that money is mostly a necessity so your level 3 guys don't get eaten alive etc. So you don't actually get anything with them, you just stay up to the necessary level to survive. In a way, it is a double grind to proceed - first leveling up guys enough and then grinding enough heirlooms/money to get their stuff/skills to the same level.

Don't get me wrong, I like the game and the atmosphere and all... I just think this is THE major problem. RNG can fuck you up at any time, but you don't really get any reward for success.

[Cthulhu]

Yes.  The problem with Darkest Dungeon is not the randomness but the fact that there isn't anything else.  Your opportunities to face the random terrors and overcome them through tactical skill and resource management is generally limited.  The devs seem terrified of giving you anything that isn't at brutal cost.  The only equipment you can find in the dungeon inevitably has harsh penalties attached to it.

I've heard that the difficulty drops big time once your guys are close to maxed out.  That's a sign that the difficulty isn't in tactical choices but in being strong enough to just bludgeon through the randomness.  The question of winning darkest dungeon isn't "Can you swim?" but "Are you tall enough to keep your head out of the water?"

[darkflagrance]

Are we playing the same game? I always finish dungeons with a surplus of cash. With the right balance of stuns (flashbang, YAWP, blow), strong damage dealers (crusader, hellion, hwm), and reliable vestal or crusader heals, I've been able to mitigate the rng pretty well so far. Action economy is huge; you need to make sure your opponent's per turn ability to injure and debilitate your party is minimized. I also run soldiers that can each function from most slots, so that surprise doesn't prevent me from eliminating at least one enemy per turn. If you don't have a sense of progress, remember that you should be upgrading skills and armor/weapons as your top priority, and then build up gold to use on the trinket wagon. You'll find that as long as you keep your heroes up to date with the dungeons and have good party compositions that emphasize enemy control, you can handle the enemy easily. If you think that the dungeons level with the heroes, you haven't gotten to the late game yet. The difficulty curve is broken by player knowledge, not increasing hero stats (which is a poor way to allow players to break difficulty curves).

The way to control rng is to limit the negative effects bad rolls can have. That's not to say I haven't had members blasted to zero health in one turn before, but minor set backs like that are part of the game, and, I daresay, fun. Even hitting 100 stress is not the end.

[nenjin]

I'm starting to change my opinion on Trinkets. Yeah, they all come with some sort of crappy downsides. But some of those downsides can be tailored to certain classes. So for example, your leper? SPD down isn't going to hurt him that much. Losing DOD likewise won't hurt that much. -3 SPD for +10% Damage? Seems like a pretty good deal. Not all trinkets are that way of course but a lot of them give downsides that really are just tilting the odds on the RNG. For a guy that will dodge maybe 1 out of every 10 attacks, dodging 1 out of 12 for a flat damage boost is a good trade off.

That said, it still isn't very sexy as loot, with those penalties staring you back in the face.

[Retropunch]

I think the biggest problem is just that everything stays exactly balanced loot/skill wise. Nothing is good or bad, it's all just different shades of medium. Whereas in other games you get 'good stuff' to counter a bad RNG streak, in DD you don't get anything for the rough spots.

I'm hoping they'll keep making a few patches and it'll balance out the difficulty curve more. Even just a bit of tweaking to the rewards/loot would do wonders for this game.

[Rakonas]

I really just think there needs to be good loot. There are very few items that really feel totally worthwhile. You should be pressed to sacrifice lives to get that awesome item for your hero to possibly turn the tides. That and the heirloom grind is inconvenienced by certain regions being unavailable so far.