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Author Topic: Darkest Dungeon II. Emotionally traumatize some adventurers. Wagon Life.  (Read 222085 times)

nenjin

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It was always kind of my concern that the design was a little too tight. Red Hook felt Town would be enough "Not dying" to keep the game from feeling like the corridors you're walking down, but it just isn't. Once you're done reading what things in town do, you click through what you need to in a few moments after some consideration and fact-finding. It's sort of like HLM in that the meat of the game is great, but the tension builds up and there's no real outlet for it. It's not like your typical RPG where you run a harrowing dungeon and then decompress talking to NPCs and getting your rewards and stuff. It's the kind of thing that, for me, isn't conducive to long playing sessions.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

ChairmanPoo

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That too. Heck, there's more wind-out in cataclysm-dda (which is utterly unforgiving)
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Everyone sucks at everything. Until they don't. Not sucking is a product of time invested.

nenjin

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Red Hook has pointed to May as the date for a big content drop. Couple new heroes, couple new bosses, new rewards for people adventuring in the dark on medium and long dungeons.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Yoink

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Got an email from the devs today about stuff for $20 backers.
A brief search through my inbox revealed that they actually sent me a Steam key a while back... hopefully this new laptop of mine can run the game. Installing it now, I'll give it a try later on. :)
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Booze is Life for Yoink

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you need to reconsider your life
If there's any cause worth dying for, it's memes.

Jeshin

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I think that adding a bit of 'found letters' to the game might help alleviate the murder-death feeling that comes from playing it in long spurts. Something that when you find it, they have the narrator voice actor read the letter. Perhaps it's the letter of your ancestor during the time that he was running the place before he finds the cthulu door. Perhaps it's a letter of a towns person who ventured in and ended up lost.
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Yoink

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Oh man, this game is a dick.
Seriously the rate of gaining stress and insanity is... well, insane.
Still going to keep playing it, though. :)

Edit: After playing it for quite a while, I can conform that this game is not particularly fun in its current state. Hopefully they make some changes before release.
I'm all for difficulty, but afflictions are terribly annoying at the moment, and there is no way to avoid them.
The only way to really progress through the game seems to be just throwing expendables into the dungeon, grabbing a bit of loot and then letting them die to free up space for new, able-minded adventurers. Maybe that's what the devs are going for, but it doesn't make for a fun experience in my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2015, 02:56:20 am by Yoink »
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Booze is Life for Yoink

To deprive him of Drink is to steal divinity from God.
you need to reconsider your life
If there's any cause worth dying for, it's memes.

nenjin

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The Fiends & Frenzy update is here. It brings a set of new bosses for the already playable areas of the game, a boat load of fixes, some balance changes and some new quality of life features.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If you stress about money in the early game, being able to sell your trinkets is a godsend. Not only can you keep the clutter down, they are easily worth a single instance of dungeon loot most of the time. Trinkets somehow seem less crappy in their stats too.

The game is perhaps a little more forgiving, at least based on this playthrough I started. I've only lost one character (that was due to two bullshit crits back to back and then a finishing attack), and I've only had to abandon two or three of 12 attempts. Darkness penalties and bonuses were tweaked to make it more threatening. More stress, less crit chance. There's some late game balancing tweaks in there somewhere, mostly HP on monsters.

If characters get afflicted and then maxes out their stress bar again, they die of a heart attack. It's unclear whether the same is true if you got a virtue.

Generally speaking, the AI feels like it's better about singling out weak characters. Like whatever % chance they have to go for the obvious attack is more in their favor.

Another thing I've noticed is Obsessions seem to be getting handed out way more at the end of missions. I've got multiple guys with 3 and 4 obsessions at this point. They're the kind of thing you tend to ignore because they don't hurt you that bad, but when your party is liable to bum rush every single curio in the map, it can start to cause problems.

Heal crits are a thing now. Some of the bigger heals can now crit for nice, large heals. It's not anything to count on, but when it happens when you need it, it's a godsend.

The Arbalest and Man-At-Arms are in. The Arbalest seems less like a damage dealer and more like a support character. She's got a nice 2 point heal that buffs other heals on that character by 20%. You don't notice the effect much until someone crits, then you get nice, 20+ point heals. She's got a +Torch ability that removes stun and marked debuffs. All in all, she's like a more appealing Plague Doctor in my mind.

The Man-At-Arms is a big beefy tank with a shield, and it's not just his looks. At first I wasn't too impressed with his abilities, but he a) seems to take less damage than either the Leper or the Crusader b) has a stun with forward 1 c) has an attack that gives him a riposte buff, so he does a regular attack when the next person attacks him in melee, AND d) he has a +10 PROT buff that also makes him soak hits against other players. He seems like a real tank, and is quickly becoming a favorite of mine.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 11:02:27 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Yoink

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"Balance changes" = multiple nerfs to heroes, buffs to all the baddies that were already painful to fight.
Not sure I like this update at all. None of the balance changes I was actually hoping for are in effect. :-/

I'll probably start a new game to test out the two new classes, I guess.
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Booze is Life for Yoink

To deprive him of Drink is to steal divinity from God.
you need to reconsider your life
If there's any cause worth dying for, it's memes.

Majestic7

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I played a little bit and I'm not impressed with arbalester, mainly because her abilities are tied to her being in the fourth slot, pretty much. So everything that shuffles characters hurts her bad, while she has no movement abilities unless I'm mistaken.

Selling trinkets is nice.

I'm still missing for something else to do than just put heroes into the grinder. It would be nice if there was some strategic width to the hamlet and the territories in general.
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rumpel

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"Balance changes" = multiple nerfs to heroes, buffs to all the baddies that were already painful to fight.
Not sure I like this update at all. None of the balance changes I was actually hoping for are in effect. :-/

I'll probably start a new game to test out the two new classes, I guess.

The new classes are cool!

Also I didn't play for quite a long time and in my opinion it felt a lot easier, though.
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debvon

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Any word on when they'll get around to releasing the final dungeon(s)? Haven't had a chance to check out the new update yet but I'm thinking of just waiting until they finish those shaded out areas. Don't want to get burned out and all that.
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Sindain

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So, decided to check out the new updates. Started a new game today.

Third real run in the game, had a crusader, plague doctor, occultist and an arbalest in that order in my line-up. Only my plague doctor wasn't a rookie. Left the first room, spotted an interactble object I've never seen before. Looked at it, its description said "Sacrifice a torch to summon the abyss". Thought "Why the hell not" and used a torch on it.

Following that, the torch level was set to pitch black and I was ambushed by this mean motherfucker called a "Shambler". Two spaces large, 77 hp, capable of summoning adds, most of his attacks hit the entire party, all of his attacks caused either blight, bleed, or extra stress damage, and of course, his adds also caused extra stress damage. At one point the Shambler did over 140 cumulative stress damage with a single hit. 

My party fought bravely and killed the beast, barely. Everyone hit 100 stress, the only person who didn't get an affliction was my plague doctor, who rolled vigorous. Coincidentally, she was also the only person to survive the fight, with 2 hp, so we wouldn't have won the fight without vigorous.

Got an ancestral trinket from it, obviously had to abandon the mission. Quite appropriately, my plague doctor got eldritch slayer.
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GiglameshDespair

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I should probably follow this thread.
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nenjin

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I suspect the Darkest Dungeon level won't be in EA. At least, that's what I'd do. Either way they haven't said that I recall.

I'm also kinda mixed on the Arbalest. She doesn't hit very hard and her abilities, while useful, don't stack up very well against the healers who would normally take her spot. Sort of like the Plague Doctor, every time I go to add her to the party I ask if I'd rather have a second healer-type instead and the answer is almost always yes.

Man-At-Arms is just beast though. I basically don't have to worry about him at all in terms of going from full to Death's Door in a turn. You certainly don't want for appealing tank options in this game. They've taken some accuracy penalties away from the Leper, so while the base accuracy of his attacks is still shit (65-ish) a couple of good trinkets can buff it to the point he's on par with the other tanks.

I've now made it further in this game than any other so far. Cleared all the Apprentice Level bosses, dabbled in some veteran runs. In like 12 hours, I did it with only two characters killed and ZERO Afflictions or Virtues occurring. I get now why players who have seen the end of the EA content say the mid to late game loses some difficulty. Lvl 2 armor and weapons really go a long way toward nullifying the starter monsters as threats, because the HP, PROT and DODGE increases are not trivial, and resolve resistance to stress is huge. Your crits starting getting monstrous as well. Level 2 gear seems to be the point at which you start having a fighting chance against everything. Skills, by comparison, only seem to be worth leveling for the additional accuracy and the higher debuff chance (since higher level monsters all have higher level resists.) The crit increases don't really seem to be worth it, and if the damage modifiers change, it must only be at higher levels. Heals still seem to be worth investing in though since the healing value does immediately scale up.

I suppose if you were hoping DD would be a giant wall of frustration and hopelessness late game, a never-ending meat grinder of an insurmountable challenge, I can see why it getting easier might be disappointing. I frankly welcome NOT getting my nuts stomped on every run.

Currently I have a Leper with 8 PROT between his gear, trinkets and quirks, and the guy is almost untouchable except by bosses and crits. It's so gratifying to watch 0s show up for damage when monsters try to attack him. Even a couple points of PROT is enough to nullify some weaker attacks (like Rabid Rush from the Weald hounds, or Scatter shot from the Brigand Shooters.) Investing in lvl 1 or 2 armor ASAP seems to be helpful.

Also investing in the Sanitarium now seems like it's more important. Like I said, obsessions seem to crop up a lot more now and diseases as quirks get more common outside of the ruins. Earning Quirks still seems almost completely random, which is a disappointment. I don't think all of them are, because I've noticed the people that end up with "Curious" tend to be the people I do most of my searching with. But when you abandon a run right as it starts and end up with 4 positive Quirks, it does make you question what's actually going on under the hood. And I'm forced to suspect: nothing more than RNG really.

For those that were frustrated by getting shit like "Godless" and "Witness" on the same character, many of them are mutually exclusive now, so they replace each other when earned. The system isn't perfect still, but the faults are entirely in your favor now. (For example, you can have Tippler (can only drink in town) along with Witness (cannot pray.) This essentially means Witness is a negative quirk with no effect. Hurray for you. I imagine they'll fix that.)

Also they added the mechanic where if combat goes on too long you start taking stress damage, and Stun Resistance buff to prevent chain stuns. All in the effort to stop the player from milking HP and Torch light and Stress heals during fights. Well, that's sort of true. The round cut off seems to be 10 rounds. At least, that's as long as I've let fights run and I still haven't seen stress barks in this version. You can do a lot of healing in ~6 rounds, especially with heal crits, and Stun Resistance is only 25% per stack, so you can still chain stun to a degree, at least on the weaker monsters early game. So milking fights to bolster your HP and reduce stress are still definitely a thing you can do, in moderation. Which is good, because ending fights with 5 HP is a recipe for disaster in your next fight.

It was 6am and I was still playing before I realized it. It's the first good sit down I've had with the game since I've bought it, as the length of this post probably tells you.

So it still seems to be that Lvl 0 and 1 are the hardest levels to get through as a player. Now that I have almost a full roster of level 2/3 guys, the game seems much, much easier. Every run isn't "Oh god, are they going to triple crit my healer?!??!!" They will, but, at least your healer stands a better chance of surviving once they're not a scrub anymore.

The game can still be fairly frustrating at times, especially early on when you don't feel like your bank roll and your sanity can handle a total party wipe or losing your best healer. I've developed a bit of a click-through problem with the game as well. (I've probably lost 5k to 10k gold clicking the wrong mission or forgetting to buy more than 1 torch and having to abandon the level, or clicking the wrong thing on loot windows even though I know better), and that's entirely due to the repetition. Fallen London gives me the same problems, because you're doing the same core activity (clicking a box) for 95% of game play.

Still, I finally feel like I've figured out how to play the game at my speed which is pretty important to me. I take it very slowly. I probably didn't kill any bosses for the first 8 or so hours. Which might seem silly to you guys, but given how I steamrolled pretty much everyone besides the Swine Prince, I'm pleased, because I don't want every fight to be a chair gripper. The only part I don't like is that you slowly phase out easier missions until you're not even guaranteed to see an apprentice mission every week. Which can put you in an awkward position when you have no characters or a viable party to run that week. My water mark for doing ok is being able to stay above 10k in gold, and I've managed to do that pretty much since the 4th week or so. One thing that helped was realizing medium + runs can be BIG money makers if you're willing to sacrifice all the heirlooms you encounter for treasure. I've had runs net 15k gold doing that.

My usual load out is:
8 food
5 torches
1 of every item
for Short Apprentice Runs

12 Food
6 - 7 torches
1 of every item
for Medium anything runs.

Doing that I almost never face starvation unless I'm forced to eat food to heal, and I can usually keep my torch between 100 and 50% the whole game. (Although I almost always bring a class that can generate light.) Some money tends to be wasted on the extra items that don't get used, but having them all means I can tap each curio for the best treasure at least once per game. (I ended up using a spoiler sheet for what the curios do. That also has helped me really maximize my profits per run, and minimized the trauma.)

So all in all...I feel like early game balance is coming along better, and weaker parts of the game (trinkets) are starting to get balanced to the point they're useful. (The easiest trinket decisions to make are like, damage reduction for PROT and Healing for your healers, and DODGE reduction for your tanks for PROT and damage buffs. DPS characters tend to need everything more which makes trinket decisions for them harder.) It does feel like the game is brutalizing you a little less, and that's good to me, because the front-loaded difficulty was definitely keeping me away from this game. If a game makes me rage out in the first two hours just trying to establish myself, it makes me think I'll be raging 2x as much once it gets harder, which causes me to not play. DD seems like it's starting to address this problem.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 07:33:49 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Yolan

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Nice to hear peoples thoughts. I bought DD when it first came out on early access, but this is the first time I've allowed myself to play it for any real length of time.

Like the UI a lot. From a game design perspective, it's giving me plenty to think of for emulating with Innkeep!

Combat feels pretty fun. So far after eight hours in though its if anything a little on the easy side. No deaths at all, and I haven't had to run away more than a couple of times.

If I had any gripes it would be...

1. Information overload. Lots and lots of little perks that seem to only do X in condition Y (like in a certain location, or if light level is a certain amount). Following all of this annoys me, and doesn't feel like it adds or takes much from the feel of the characters.

2. Lack of explanation. What do all these various stats do? Is that stat low? High? There are all kinds of buffs and debuffs going on with skills, spells, quirks and trinkets, but if I don't really know what the effect is how can I make good decisions? I guess I can find the game wiki and start researching, but I think the game could do a better job of introducing and managing this information. That links up a bit with #1 above. Some streamlining wouldn't hurt.

3. Character attachment - Would like that to be fleshed out more. I don't mind the perma-death, but I'd like to care a bit more about my guys. Being able to change the names and colors is cool, but I'm being encouraged by the meta-game to think of the individuals as all disposable. That seems to run against the tension of the combat though. Whatever guy dies, well, I have another couple in the wings.

4. Trinkets. Still not feeling it. Can I have equipment that doesn't harm me in some way pls? Forcing me to make my characters take on different roles, and building them together into a functioning team, that's all well and dandy. But does it really mean that we have to do away with that tried and true cornerstone of dungeon spelunking that is finding some nice little piece of equipment?

I guess I will have to wait and see how I feel when I get closer to the mid/end game. And of course it is still being developed. Right now I'd say, Plus: nice idea, nice aesthetics, generally nice execution. Minus: pretty confusing, and some conflict between the meta-game and the dungeon crawling that makes it hard to feel emotionally invested.
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I'm making a game called "Innkeep!", where you run an inn set in a low-fantasy world and try to lighten your guests pockets. Forum topic here.
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