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[EnigmaticHat]

Yeah, OW devs are... well they're kinda chickenshit about changing things.  Prior to realizing how bad 7.0 is I used DOTA as an example of how great a game can be when the developers are wiling to change things wildly.  But, well... maybe the OW devs dragging their feet on everything has its merits.

I agree with you about Roadhog (and I main him).  Picks win games.  Tanks win games.  The character that is best at getting picks, should not also be a tank.  Yet they still haven't nerfed him much.

[MrRoboto75]

If they did nerf hog, he would be useless.  "Hook someone and one-shot them" is the only line on his design document.

[Putnam]

he actually can't really do that? at least, when i have full health as Lucio i usually live after a hook. he requires some coordination from your teammates, now, get soldier to just sort of shoot them once

[kilakan]

He can totally do that, you just need to be a good hog and get a headshot.  If you miss some pellets or body-shot they live.  Lucio is a bit trickier since due to pellet spread you can sometimes live since you heal a bit after the hook damage but I've certainly one-shot lucios by myself as hog before.

[umiman]

Revive!

So the newest patch put ez mode / Turbo into the game. I'll admit myself and my friends have been having a lot of fun with it. Mostly because the games are so much faster and there's less pressure to perform.

It's basically a slightly harder heroes of the storm.

I still wouldn't play it solo though.

[EnigmaticHat]

Did the core game get its act together again?

[umiman]

Did the core game get its act together again?

Dunno. Haven't played normal.

Turbo is fun because the games average around 20 minutes. Also it's basically nonstop fighting.

It actually reminds me a bit of how Dota used to be. More snowbally. More roaming and fighting.

[MrRoboto75]

Turbo seems attractive but as a noob I worry playing it too much would develop bad habits.

[Android]

I've played one game of turbo mode, and that was more than enough to know any strats that work there are pure gimmicks. Pick 5 heroes with summons and win the game in 5 min. As to the core of the game, I thought it was in a pretty good spot prior to 7.07, but I have not played enough of this patch to say if that is still the case.

[MrRoboto75]

It seems that having constant shop access in turbo really screws with consumable item use.  Some people suggested instead making all shops on the map stock all items, or limiting shop access to just being near friendly buildings.

[EnigmaticHat]

They might fix some problems like that with the mode but it seems unlikely they'll balance around it.  Picking 4 heroes with summons is actually step one of a (literal) pro strat.  Step 2 is picking Drow Ranger and maxing her aura first.  Step 3 is getting aegis on Drow and then using the flat ranged damage boost from her aura combined with the summons to push a tier 3 tower crazy early.  It sounds like the real problem is that any strat dominant in the earlygame is powerful in turbo, since picking 5 summon heroes is quite solid in the core game too... provided you can win so hard in the first 15 minutes the enemy team starts flaming themselves.

I wouldn't be surprised if midgame carries and position 2-3 gankers are also really powerful in turbo.  Gyrocopter, Night Stalker, Slardar would probably be good.  If supports are used in the mode, characters like Winter Wyvern that are ultra powerful level 1 are probably also good.  Probably anyone who gets a huge teamfight ult level 6; Enigma, Earth Shaker, Witch Doctor.  Bane and Lion would probably be crazy too.  Granted I haven't played it, so for all I know turbo is all carry all the time.

[umiman]

Right... Well, as someone who actually has played a bunch of it.

1. Lategame carries own. Antimage, Spectre, etc.

2. Gankers dominate. Guys like Spirit Breaker just own because of how many fights there are constantly.

3. Snowball heroes don't do very well. Meepo for example who relies on being higher level than everyone else is pretty trash. Bounty Hunter is another example of someone you'll never want.

4. Long CD heroes are never picked ever. The game will probably be over before you even use black hole twice. I've literally never seen Enigma or Tide. You'll constantly be in fights where your ult is not up.

5. Invis isn't invincible any more. You can buy detection any time you want. That being said, Riki's level 25 talent where his ult becomes a giant radius is super scary in this. Again, because of how much fighting there is. Also invis guys like Clinkz are super strong because they melt towers before you even know they're there.

6. Backdoor heroes are ultra powerful in general. Prophet, Terrorblyat, Antimagus, etc. But at the same time, TP cooldown is really short, so it's not particularly hard to defend against it.

7. Jungling is... difficult to pull off. You get so much less exp and gold because you're not fighting like the lanewars that go on. So it seems you'll always be underlevelled. Hell, roaming seems to pay off more than jungling.

8. Supports are fun to play. Simply because you actually have money and levels. So you can get all the cool shit and still fight like the best of them. I frequently see Rubick slaughtering carries in this.

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Honestly it doesn't feel very different from normal Dota. Except it's just faster and more fighty. It snowballs more because towers die really fast, but at the same time carries can get six slotted really fast too. The "being able to buy consumables anytime" isn't that big of a deal either. You can do it too after all, and it's not like they're free. A dumbass who has to buy 6 health pots to survive his lane is ruining his own life. It's just convenient and more arcadey. Which is probably why everyone just fights all the time. And that's fun.

In my dozen or so games, it's never really felt particularly imbalanced in either direction. We've won and lost to cheese teams as much as normal teams. So yeah, there's no real need to analyze it too much. It's just arcade mode. Hell, the pros like it too. SingSing et al are all playing it. It's just more fun when the games are only 20 minutes long and filled with nonstop fighting. And even if you're losing, meh. At least you're not stuck in that game for 50 minutes.

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I'm also not going to pretend I'm good at this game any more. It's impossible for people who've been out of it for months or years to come back to Dota as they change everything so dramatically. It's not fun to have to basically relearn the game. So I like this mode. It's chill, casual, and there's lots of fighting.

[EnigmaticHat]

Yeah... I can't go back.  I learned so much and now it all means bubkis.

[EnigmaticHat]

Spoiler alert, I did come back!

If any of you are still playing, we should add each other.  I'm having a grand old time supporting as WW and Bane.  All the changes are interesting, most of the old logic does apply.  I like the quality of life changes to the match start screen in unranked.  Although the bonus mangos are a bit WTF.  I got WW as my bonus (she's my best hero) and I started with tango, OoV, clarity x2, mango x2, tp, courier, ward.  That's... not fair, and I'm sure there's better items I could have picked.

Overall I'd say the meta is more snowbally.  Back when I played most ganks would end in knife's edge escapes/kills.  Nowadays it seems like most fights are extremely one sided (not that one team wins all the time, rather each individual fight is a stomp) and teamfighting happens more.  If I had to point the finger at anything, I'd have to say its the shrines.  Being able to TP into jungle makes it much easier to mass for a fight.  Anyway, because most deaths are complete overkill, "saves supports" like Dazzle are really out of the meta.  Hard CC, early peaking heroes, and/or strength offlaners are where its at right now for pos 3-5.  Roaming Riki/Bounty is still solid if played right.  SS is in almost every game because he gets Bane's ult as a normal ability (he always did but its more valuable now).

[MrRoboto75]

I've been fucking around in dota here and there.  Mostly in the arcade, Open Angel Arena, but every now and again just the base game when OAA is low pop (it usually is).

I'm a total noob though.  I usually don't feed too much but I generally don't achieve anything too useful either.  Did alright last time I played Warlock though.