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[Putnam]

it's probably not the case that good players pick omniknight more

And if they were, one player won't bump up the average that much--and it would have to be on the order of one player, since there's a matchmaking system and all. Yeah, it's believable that people can have >51% winrate, but most people don't, and the very best players who do tend to have that high (s4 what the hell) are very very rare, be statistical outliers. The vast majority are going to be where they belong, among other players of similar skill, so "good players pick X hero and that's why their winrate is high" doesn't really cut it.

[EnigmaticHat]

Omniknight has an insane ult I think is the long and short of it.  Like repel and degen aura are great for keeping your carry moving and debuffing the enemy carry respectively but they don't compare to giving potentially the whole team physical immunity for 9 seconds.

He's a pain in the ass to lane tho.  Repel only has value in lane as a panic button or if you're committing to an attack, degen aura pushes the creeps.  Purify is pretty great tho especially if you're going up against a melee enemy.

[crazysheep]

Most professional players tend to have a winrate around 60%. EternalEnvy once explained why: 30% of the time you win the match for your team, 30% of the time you win because your team carried you, 30% of the time you lose because the other team was just plain better than you (either in terms of draft or player skill), and there's that 10% of the time where shit happens and you lose. (pretty sure he discussed this on reddit, but I don't have the link to that post.)

re: omniknight: there are a few issues which prevent him from really being an instant pick in most drafts.

• his skills are very range limited and mostly don't provide control - this limits what he can do as an early game support during the laning phase. hence you tend to find omniknight playing very defensively behind his carries, as compared to witch doctor who can start roaming and ganking stuff.
• he needs levels to be useful (aka greedy support) - having an underlevelled omniknight severely limits his impact, both offensively and defensively. unlike say an underlevelled vengeful spirit or an underlevelled rubick.
• his ult is purgeable - so long as the opposing team builds a diffusal blade on a suitable hero, the best aspect of omniknight is gone. furthermore, it's only immunity to physical damage, so lina can still throw out her combo to delete one hero from omni's team.

[Putnam]

Most professional players tend to have a winrate around 60%. EternalEnvy once explained why: 30% of the time you win the match for your team, 30% of the time you win because your team carried you, 30% of the time you lose because the other team was just plain better than you (either in terms of draft or player skill), and there's that 10% of the time where shit happens and you lose. (pretty sure he discussed this on reddit, but I don't have the link to that post.)

re: omniknight: there are a few issues which prevent him from really being an instant pick in most drafts.

• his skills are very range limited and mostly don't provide control - this limits what he can do as an early game support during the laning phase. hence you tend to find omniknight playing very defensively behind his carries, as compared to witch doctor who can start roaming and ganking stuff.
• he needs levels to be useful (aka greedy support) - having an underlevelled omniknight severely limits his impact, both offensively and defensively. unlike say an underlevelled vengeful spirit or an underlevelled rubick.
• his ult is purgeable - so long as the opposing team builds a diffusal blade on a suitable hero, the best aspect of omniknight is gone. furthermore, it's only immunity to physical damage, so lina can still throw out her combo to delete one hero from omni's team.

Yeah, Omniknight is ruined by good spacing and similar things that most skill brackets don't think about at all (me included).

Also: s4 is at 68%, that's well above 60%. He has by far the best adjusted winrate of any pro player I can find, by the looks of it (meaning any pro player with more games than me, ~300).

[umiman]

I have a winrate of around 60%. Am I a pro player?

[EnigmaticHat]

According to Dotabuff, Omniknight literally has the highest winrate for players above 5k+ mmr.  It would be a difficult argument that anything "ruins" him.  Even if a diffusal blade made the hero useless (which it doesn't, there are counter-counters), he still provides a free stacking BKB and requires the enemy to purchase an item.  That's a 7000+ gold swing just for bringing the guy (granted, much less if you count the stats those items give).

[crazysheep]

I just realised that I've been comparing omni support with other ranged supports when I should have been comparing him to a melee support like bounty hunter or ogre magi.

If the stats don't lie, why don't we see more omniknight in pro drafts?

[EnigmaticHat]

5k mmr isn't really pro.  Even 6k isn't AFAIK, although its up there.

Not going to pretend I know what's going through the pro's heads to be honest.  If I had to chance a guess, omni is unusually farm heavy for the position he's played at and pros don't like that.

[Putnam]

Yeah, I think TI-level pro nowadays is around 7k-8k. The MMR system is designed to increase without bound AFAIK.

[crazysheep]

Not going to pretend I know what's going through the pro's heads to be honest.  If I had to chance a guess, omni is unusually farm heavy for the position he's played at and pros don't like that.

• he needs levels to be useful (aka greedy support) - having an underlevelled omniknight severely limits his impact, both offensively and defensively. unlike say an underlevelled vengeful spirit or an underlevelled rubick.

[GP Trixie]

My favorite way of playing omniknight is going offlane either alone or with someone strong on the laning phase. Someone with a good slow or stun like viper or sven are perfect.

I skill only purification and degen aura until they are maxed because you don't have the mana for repel nor the ult before. I go mana boots as soon as possible, and if I'm laning with someone I have to convince them to get mana boots too. This works much better if you know the other guy because of this, you have to choose who farm the mana boots first. Then I go mek, snowball on the enemy towers and take high ground with ult.

This looks stupid but I have nearly 80% winrate in 23 games with that strategy, you actually win nearly every lane if you are patient enough. You just need to wait for purification lvl 2-3 and try to get every purification to do damage, and if they don't have something like viper and lich against you, there is not much that can stop you.

[EnigmaticHat]

Not going to pretend I know what's going through the pro's heads to be honest.  If I had to chance a guess, omni is unusually farm heavy for the position he's played at and pros don't like that.

• he needs levels to be useful (aka greedy support) - having an underlevelled omniknight severely limits his impact, both offensively and defensively. unlike say an underlevelled vengeful spirit or an underlevelled rubick.

Yes, I know we said very similar things.  You asked a question, I gave my answer.  In this case I picked the weakness that I thought would be most glaring to pros.

[crazysheep]

True.

[EnigmaticHat]

Just had the most frustrating game (also first game as spirit breaker but that's not the point).  Enemy team didn't even try to push, just five man roamed their own jungle farming and defending.  Sniper didn't do a damn thing for the entire game and then singlehandedly held off megas.  Its like they decided at the 15 minute mark they weren't even going to try to win, just draw things out as much as possible.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dota 2

[lemon10]

Against pro teams omni isn't as good for a single reason, they are good enough to reliably counter his ulti and repel.
His ulti (especially combined with repel) is extremely nasty. It functionally makes your carry completely invulnerable for ~5 seconds, and makes it so that killing the rest of the team is also extremely hard.
But if you can't get a proper teamfight up then it isn't very useful at all. Properly avoiding engaging (or fake engaging to make omni waste his ulti) in a consistent manner requires a high level of skill and coordination that you are unlikely to find outside of a 5 man very high at the least, but that pro teams pretty much all have and to regardless of the opposition.
Furthermore, its unlikely that non-pros have it together enough to buy items (eg. diffusal) and counterpick specifically to stop omni. But pros do. With a diffusal and proper engagement you can make him pretty much useless.

Plus, hes pretty bad in the laning phase (and as others have mentioned needs levels quite badly), which pros exploit ruthlessly.

Put that all together, means he is a super good hero when you are in any skill level besides pro/very high 5 man, but pretty bad when you actually are.