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Yes.

13 (72.2%)

No.

5 (27.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

[Judge_Indigo]

And here's my post to Z.
You're quite right with how I wrote that...but you also have to consider where I've been sitting this entire time. You don't know my story and that's fine but here it is. Gold and I have been friends for many months and he's talked about wanting to go back to Minecraft to have another fun game we could try out. Yet, once he gets back all he has is bad things to say "people have taken over which I don't even know, theres a snitch system which isn't mine, there's a person in the group that shows no respect towards me whatsoever" and so on so forth. As his good friend I wanted to get to the bottom of it and have his back as much as was rightfully possible (as I dont put personal feelings in front of equal rights). What he says is true and what he wants is a community of friends versus a community of bay12 forum posters. It's not anything against the forums, I'm sure this does have a lot of bright light in some situations, but personally THIS forum and especially the last 10 pages or so, aren't the bright shiny moments of bay12. I'm seeing a lot of disdain from the bay12 side, and yet you expect me to just show up to a battle weaponless? Of course I'm going to retort with my opinions and views on this, because only a FEW of the people in this post are even sitting in the neutral zone. It more so looks like a thread to defend anyone that is bay12 and go against anyone who is not (as I feel InsanityIncarnates post are mostly about). That's not a personal attack, that's just my opinion on the matter. Someone like Werdna however, has stated nothing but an equal viewpoint and was the ONLY one that I could agree with 100% of the time. Why, because he speaks from a "both sides of the fence" point of view. If you dont like that view then you're thinking is in the wrong place because thats how people can come together and work things out. I told Gold that it was a bad idea to just tear stuff down without a heads up, but at the same time agree that he shouldnt have to post it on here either. Maybe the in game message boards, how about teamspeak, or mumble? We talk all day and can communicate better than a forum can and sure, you can't record things down but I find that to be a tactful move versus wanting to just talk and get to know someone. Maybe a better thread (if anyone still wants to stay) would be about buildings and maybe I can help Gold out with checking up on said thread. Point is, we have to come to an agreement and in the end, if Gold wants something that's what I'm going with because it's his place. That doens't mean it will always be that way but you have to trust and work with him before he does with you and because you are the "dwarven invaders", you should respect that it starts with that. I just want to play in CivCraft and have fun, not post these nonsensical things when I could just talk with you in game or on a mic. I'll even get skype if need be, I just feel its much easier to use and it's a general agreement amongst most gamers to have a mic when you play multiplayer games..

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

-snip'd for longness-

I think Werdna was able to have that position because he had better contact with GoldMiner than the rest.  I can't say for everyone else, but my opinion had started on Tahu's side due to him being the only one to answer my questions in the in-game chat when I first learned of what was going on, which was in the middle of his 'exile'.  While someone by the name of Cobblesh*t was on, information from him was a tad more cryptic than what was being laid out by Tahu.  I was also shifted to a tad more likely to believe his "Goldminer wants us all out" spiel, since at the time, I was mysteriously locked out of everything (as, for some reason, I am right now, despite that getting fixed about a day or two later.  I was able to get into my room from a passage I built up to the military tower (now filled in), but I do want to know why that has happened *again*).  My belief spiel stopped around the time someone (either with communication with GoldMiner or one of GoldMiner's friends) stated (if I recall right, in this thread) that getting rid of everyone wasn't the intention, though I was still against getting rid of Tahu entirely.  When Gold posted the images of conversations he had with Tahu in the thread (images, not a conversation occurring within the thread), my opinion shifted to 'set up something to prevent this level disputes form occurring again,' which had me make the Proto-Consititution.  It was discussed a bit, but Elephant said that we should wait for Tahu and Gold to post their responses to his post before we decide upon a new government, so that fell to the wayside.

My opinion shifted to "I just want to leave" when the stuff was removed.  The root cause of my opinion change was not the bridge being removed.  I could've cared less aobut that.  It was how he refused to give a warnings of future events when I finally got him to respond several minutes later, as well as how cold his opinion was to removing something that was there before we found Dale.  Those two combined made me worried about the safety of anything I tried to do at the place, so I had a desire to go elsewhere grow.  In fact, I think those two combined with the disdain by you, GoldMiner, and the others for using the one place we currently have for all members to talk about it, it's leading others to want to just head off to somewhere different.

I'll even get skype if need be, I just feel its much easier to use and it's a general agreement amongst most gamers to have a mic when you play multiplayer games..

I've had the curse of Dial-up until a short time before summer started.  A mic tends to be a lesser priority when you have a bad internet...

[Orange Wizard]

My apologies. The remarks I made were out of line.
I am defending Bay12 in general because as I read Indigo's posts,  I see him attacking Bay12 in general for inaccurate or misconstrued reasons. This may or may not have actually been his intention, so I'll just leave it be.

Indigo, I'd like to note that I did, in fact, read your posts. All of them. And everything contained therein.
I see where you are coming from, I understand your problem, but I don't know what you want.

Mistakes have been made. On both sides, too. I'm admitting to my own. I regret them. But as it stands, there is nothing else I can do except apologise.

I also do not have a microphone. I can afford one, technically, but I would prefer it if my money went to something else.

Who the hell is voting yes on leaving? I thought everyone here wanted to stay.

I want to stay, but I'm voting Yes on leaving. I don't think we can salvage the relationship with Gold and his buddies at this point.

[gold]

The reason for locking the chests up for right now is because Dumathoin is on a lockdown. Why, you may ask? Because I had a strong feeling that the Tahu incident would cause problems with bay12 members and myself and they may take it out on Dumathoin and its supply. If people want to leave, they have every right to but at the same time, it's not fair to take from its chests to go and build elsewhere. You can say, sure that's my cobblestone that I mined up, but it was for dumathoin and it was in a dumathoin's mines...making it dumathoin's. If anyone leaves they can take what's on them as is their right, and I'd be happy to even supply tools and such for you to start out in a new land. I just don't feel its fair to make dumathoin's supply suffer for that. Anyone who wants to stay will have access to the supply as soon as your voting is done.
Everyone is welcome to stay and I don't feel having a vote is right as some may want to stay, and they don't have to leave with the majority. If they want to then that's okay but its not fair to have a split decision when some can leave, and some can stay...dumathoin will have a community going as well, it wont be barren if bay12 leaves it.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Who the hell is voting yes on leaving? I thought everyone here wanted to stay.

I want to stay, but I'm voting Yes on leaving. I don't think we can salvage the relationship with Gold and his buddies at this point.

Well, at least from within.  If we live in separate cities, we might get better relations than otherwise.

Also, this place:

Speaking of moving, I found a lovely spot at 230,13450. Forest right next to ocean right next to ice mountains. And that's close enough we could still be neighbors.

Is a really nice place.

[Orange Wizard]

Speaking of moving, I found a lovely spot at 230,13450. Forest right next to ocean right next to ice mountains. And that's close enough we could still be neighbors.

Is a really nice place.

Hm, I'll see if I can check it out later.

It's not fair to take from its chests to go and build elsewhere. You can say, sure that's my cobblestone that I mined up, but it was for dumathoin and it was in a dumathoin's mines...making it dumathoin's. If anyone leaves they can take what's on them as is their right, and I'd be happy to even supply tools and such for you to start out in a new land. I just don't feel its fair to make dumathoin's supply suffer for that.

This is fair.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

Two things:

To people in general:
How do I change ownership of groups?  I want to give the military tower to Judge_Indigo.

To people of the new fort:
A few questions that need to be answered:
Are we going to be using the Twelfth Bay as the civilization name?
What do we name the fortress?  Spearbreakers?  Sparkgear?  Boatmurdered?  _Godgranite?
What about the constitution?  Do we use the one I laid out earlier?  Modify it?  Make a new one entirely?

[Baffler]

The reason for locking the chests up for right now is because Dumathoin is on a lockdown. Why, you may ask? Because I had a strong feeling that the Tahu incident would cause problems with bay12 members and myself and they may take it out on Dumathoin and its supply. If people want to leave, they have every right to but at the same time, it's not fair to take from its chests to go and build elsewhere. You can say, sure that's my cobblestone that I mined up, but it was for dumathoin and it was in a dumathoin's mines...making it dumathoin's. If anyone leaves they can take what's on them as is their right, and I'd be happy to even supply tools and such for you to start out in a new land. I just don't feel its fair to make dumathoin's supply suffer for that. Anyone who wants to stay will have access to the supply as soon as your voting is done.
Everyone is welcome to stay and I don't feel having a vote is right as some may want to stay, and they don't have to leave with the majority. If they want to then that's okay but its not fair to have a split decision when some can leave, and some can stay...dumathoin will have a community going as well, it wont be barren if bay12 leaves it.

That's fair, but what about personal chests? Most of what's in mine is garbage, saplings and rotten flesh and stuff, but there's a little bit of iron I'd like to retrieve.

--------------------

Baffler is it?

Yes, yes it is. Now that that's cleared up...

I don't even know you but that's okay, you clearly want to get to know me. One of which is already in place (not all of the Bay12 members are exiled). I'm from the real world where men (adults at least) can talk about things in person. Not hide their feelings with whispers or these said posts.

And you must understand my position. When I logged on yesterday, you were there running around. I said hi, and you didn't say anything. I even sent you a private message, which you also ignored. Not too long after, you started up with much the same sort of spiel you've launched into here. I had, thus far, been given no reason to think you weren't a mook. Like this:

t's not a Bay12 server, nor is it a Bay12 residence.

The thought that it was ever Bay12's is sadly mistaken, only on your parts simply because you walked into a place (that wasn't yours), were given the keys to it (again, not by the owner), and you're just walking about fixing the place up (which is okay as long as it adheres to the simple rules). If you want to actually know the rules of Dumathoin you could just ask, I knew them from day 1. You don't build on or around the mountain as it's supposed to be hidden (this includes docks or even Dale as it was built too close to his border to start with and he had a problem with it from the start of its building), you don't go off the Dwarven theme which is understandable considering at least 99% is just that, and you work with others on projects so we all know what's going on (this mainly entails to speaking with Gold on how he feels about it as it's HIS place). He's welcoming anyone who wishes to stay and have fun, not stir up bickering and arguments, and that's how the game should be.

That doesn't inspire much confidence on my part in your good faith.

At no point did I say Tahu's pearling was unjustified. Threats like that are counter to both your goals and ours. What I dispute is that you seem to think we have no place here, despite our months of renovation, repair, and work. With you notably absent until a few days ago, I'd add. Goldminer doesn't even think we have no place here. The only reason we've had any problems is because we don't talk to each other properly to get anything settled. None of us want to kick you or Gold out, nobody ever said that. My only objection is that we aren't asked for input about anything. Because we don't talk to each other. Until a few days ago, nobody else was in Dumathion, so we talked about it here.

"Bay12 isn't welcome into Dumathoin". I'm quoting myself just to simply beat the whispering rats to it.   Before you get your feathers ruffled over that comment, note that it's BAY12 that isn't welcome. That doesn't mean everyone in Bay12, that doesn't mean you cant be a part of bay12 whilst in Dumathoin, it simply means the mere thought of having some "circles within circles" group, much like religion and politics isn't welcome in a bar, isn't welcome in Dumathoin because all it will do is cause this exact problem. You're all used to doing this early 90s gaming routine of chatting with one another through forums instead of the actual game. That's fine, but you could also join reddit and actually be active in those forums then, so everyone knows what's actually going on. Instead of saying/implying "you should post on our forums because that's what we like", you could work with someone that has EVERY right to deny that request. Here's a good scenario that's already happened; Z has a problem with what I say in game, and then skulks off to chat on here about it instead of in game. There's a chance he was just out of range before heading off, as I was scouting around outside of Dumathoin right after that, but I didn't hear anything after that comment related to what he stated on here about his mixed feelings and fears. But again, from my viewpoint it looks pretty bad on his part.

Reddit would have compromised the secrecy of the place, and people here don't generally have microphones. On the other hand, bay12 is relatively unknown. Nobody would come looking for it here, and it's where we got onto the thing anyway. There was no need to do anything else until very recently. I really do wish I could talk to y'all in game with a mic, that's a fair request, but I can't get one until I get paid and I've got a stutter I'm terribly embarrassed of besides.

Not that I see you in here anyways (as I can state for just about every single one of the posters in the last couple pages). Slaves, on the other hand, did have to be there and were killed if attempting to escape. You're as free to go as you were to come in. To those that have that "lets just leave" attitude, please do. Clearly you don't want to talk about it and work things out, so you're obviously not the material ANY good "Civ" needs. If you all just blindly follow the ignorant person in front of you as ants would, then tread carefully, for the way of ants shows you that they're the means to their own demise. Next time you think of even speaking my name, or any others name for that matter, you should get to know that person and hear them out first.

All in all though, I voted to leave. I've lost most hope of ever resolving this, and the spot Hugo found is rather nice. How could I stay? You've outright said bay12'ers and I are untrustworthy, not worth anyone's time. If this is what you call respect, I hope I never truly upset you. Frankly I'm concerned we'll be followed to where we eventually settle.

------------

Two things:

To people in general:
How do I change ownership of groups?  I want to give the military tower to Judge_Indigo.

To people of the new fort:
A few questions that need to be answered:
Are we going to be using the Twelfth Bay as the civilization name?
What do we name the fortress?  Spearbreakers?  Sparkgear?  Boatmurdered?  _Godgranite?
What about the constitution?  Do we use the one I laid out earlier?  Modify it?  Make a new one entirely?

Twelfth Bay works for me. I'm partial to Pulleydanger, but I don't really have a preference.

I would modify the constitution, as large portions of it were written to compromise with people we're not going to be living with. I don't have any kind of proposal ready though, this post is long enough already.

[Elephant Parade]

The vote is currently 10-2 in favour of leaving Dumathoin.

So, I'd like to ask everyone a question: What would you like to see in the Twelth Bay (name tentative)?

Two things:

To people in general:
How do I change ownership of groups?  I want to give the military tower to Judge_Indigo.

To people of the new fort:
A few questions that need to be answered:
Are we going to be using the Twelfth Bay as the civilization name?
What do we name the fortress?  Spearbreakers?  Sparkgear?  Boatmurdered?  _Godgranite?
What about the constitution?  Do we use the one I laid out earlier?  Modify it?  Make a new one entirely?

Hmm. I'm going to write up a constitution of my own, and see what people think. Your constitution seems pretty much fine, though.

[Elephant Parade]

Barebones society system, heavily inspired by Zanzetkuken:

Military: Military is captained by the Captain of the Guard, who is elected by the Council. The Captain of the Guard has a double vote in military matters.

Castes: Castes are denoted by a named sword in the first slot. Optionally, people can wear coloured hats to show profession.

King: The king is voted in by the Council at the end of every month. The king has a council vote, and can advise the council. The king breaks ties.

Thoughts? The more people suggesting constitutions/parts of constitutions, the more ideas will bounce around.

Now, another question: What are we going to do for aesthetics? Personally, I'm thinking about lava flows blocked off by cobblestone walls.

[Baffler]

I'm an enormous fan of the pillared halls sort of mountainhome. Lots of wall space for murals and frescoes, lots of floor space. That doesn't really work for everything though, it would take eons to build it all like Moria's halls. If I can though, I'd love to make a temple of Armok in that style.

[TheDarkStar]

It's not fair to take from its chests to go and build elsewhere. You can say, sure that's my cobblestone that I mined up, but it was for dumathoin and it was in a dumathoin's mines...making it dumathoin's. If anyone leaves they can take what's on them as is their right, and I'd be happy to even supply tools and such for you to start out in a new land. I just don't feel its fair to make dumathoin's supply suffer for that.

This is fair.

Agreed. We should all take our personal stuff, but don't take Dumathoin supplies. Also, don't grief stuff. If you have stuff from your house that you want to remove (stairs, etc), go ahead, but don't fill it with obsidian or something silly like that. Don't destroy parts of the city (although that should go without saying). Also, process any ores that you think you should before you leave - we won't have factories up for a while.

PPE:

The vote is currently 10-2 in favour of leaving Dumathoin.

So, I'd like to ask everyone a few questions: What would you like to see in the Twelth Bay (name tentative)?

Two things:

To people in general:
How do I change ownership of groups?  I want to give the military tower to Judge_Indigo.

To people of the new fort:
A few questions that need to be answered:
Are we going to be using the Twelfth Bay as the civilization name?
What do we name the fortress?  Spearbreakers?  Sparkgear?  Boatmurdered?  _Godgranite?
What about the constitution?  Do we use the one I laid out earlier?  Modify it?  Make a new one entirely?

Hmm. I'm going to write up a constitution of my own, and see what people think. Your constitution seems pretty much fine, though.

I want to see a design that's difficult to get lost in (I like the design with the large chamber, personally). Maybe some things like keeping stuff (especially farms) close to houses.

Twelth Bay works OK as a civilization name. As for the name, Spearbreakers sounds good.

As for the constitution, the part about holding certain things to designate rank seems a little tedious, and restricting armor (even if just helmets) doesn't seem like a good idea in terms of safety. Also, the counsel should be able to remove the King with a unanimous vote (in case the King leaves and never comes back or something like that). While there would be a regent, it might sometimes be necessary to end a king's reign early (or if they give it up to someone else).

PPE #2: Some cobblestone is good (especially for tunnels like the entrance ones to Dumathoin), but stone is also important. So are a giant statue of a dwarf in the middle of the fort, engraving/mining out walls with dwarf-related images, and a magma sea/river.

Edit: Should we start leaving and setting up some kind of base at HugoLumen's spot now?

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

That's fair, but what about personal chests? Most of what's in mine is garbage, saplings and rotten flesh and stuff, but there's a little bit of iron I'd like to retrieve.

Personally, I grabbed all I wanted from mine.  I didn't see why not because, well, personal.

Hmm. I'm going to write up a constitution of my own, and see what people think. Your constitution seems pretty much fine, though.

Okay.  We can put it to a vote to decide which one to adopt.

Twelfth Bay works for me. I'm partial to Pulleydanger, but I don't really have a preference.

I would modify the constitution, as large portions of it were written to compromise with people we're not going to be living with. I don't have any kind of proposal ready though, this post is long enough already.

Which parts would you say?  Just to note: I've added an impeachment clause to the constitution so that we can get rid of the king, if necessary.

Now, another question: What are we going to do for aesthetics? Personally, I'm thinking about lava flows blocked off by cobblestone walls.

I vote pillars cored by lava.  In terms of overall, I'm partial to the steep, sweeping Gothic ceiling for the main hall, preferably with it fading into darkness at the top, and a medieval Nordic and Roman mix for other areas.

Edit:

As for the constitution, the part about holding certain things to designate rank seems a little tedious, and restricting armor (even if just helmets) doesn't seem like a good idea in terms of safety. Also, the counsel should be able to remove the King with a unanimous vote (in case the King leaves and never comes back or something like that). While there would be a regent, it might sometimes be necessary to end a king's reign early (or if they give it up to someone else).

Already added to mine.  In fact, it wasn't long before you posted.

[Elephant Parade]

restricting armour is unsafe

Agreed. That was why I said the helmet was optional.

As for carrying an item being unnecessary, that's probably also true.

The remove-the-king-with-a-unanimous-vote thing shouldn't be necessary, since an election is held at the end of every month.

[Judge_Indigo]

         Yeah, it was just a misunderstanding Insanity, no worries. I apologize if it comes out as that but I'm not being disrespectful or holding anything against anyone. Every time I hear that word "disdain" it ticks me off, because thats not how we feel or treat others. Like right now, Hugo needed to trade iron for obsidian, Gold didn't need obsidian, nor did he have a lot of iron so he told me he wouldn't mind going miles out to just make a trade with someone. Again, Hugo doesn't show aggression towards us, or disdain as you'd put it, and he doesn't want to cause issues. He wants to simply have fun and play a game, and because he needed help he could ask for it. That's all I want and as for the "safety" of the things you build in Gold's place is there as long as it adheres to his rules, but it's okay if people don't accept that as the way Dumathoin is run. Again, everyone has a different opinion on this which brings me to my next topic.

           The voting; it's okay to have votes in some situations. I don't feel this is one of them, as it separates the bay12 members and forces people to either leave due to the majority vote or accept that some want other things and split up. I think you may be able to solve that with just different threads and checking out how things are with one another. Again a voice chat would be more simple in this instance which is why I'm trying to get people on the idea of how this forum posting is obsolete versus the voice chat in these situations. No communication barriers, no guessing how things come across due to being able to actually hear someone, and no breaks from the reason we're all here..to have fun and game with friends.

" None of us want to kick you or Gold out, nobody ever said that"
I didn't suggest that anyone said that, I suggested that he felt something was taken from him unrightfully and I completely agree. Said from others before my post, CivCraft isn't run to where you can just setup a place in an "abandoned" zone. That still took time to build and they took that time to have something to call home, forever or until Civcraft resets the map.

"How could I stay? You've outright said bay12'ers and I are untrustworthy, not worth anyone's time. If this is what you call respect, I hope I never truly upset you"
See it's unnecessary and rude comments like this that are hard to even work with, least I don't see how anyone WOULDN'T take offense to that. It feels as though I'm speaking with a few mature people and every now and then someone chimes in with something so ridiculous that it's impossible to even retort without aggression. I never said you or anyone was untrustworthy, so that's a blatant lie. I don't trust anyone, that's a personal issue with myself but I never said it's because of others. You're all not untrustworthy people, I just don't trust anyone in general. Not worth anyone's time? Really? Out of all my posts, THATS what you got from what I stated? Again, it feels as though someone is skimming through and not actually getting the message, this is why I like talking on a mic...not through words on a screen. What I call respect is something this comment CLEARLY does not show, and I guarantee you 99% of others would feel the same in my shoes. Misquoting someone is a highly offensive thing so unless I clearly state "you're untrustworthy and not worth anyone's time", please for the love of god don't assume it. -.- I can see why Gold doesn't respond on here now, we're having a great time playing games until the "forums posts" topic comes up and then its just a major headache.

If you leave, that's fine (not saying that I'm giving permission or to sound grateful that people are going) just that theres no harm done in that,but just remember, its not because of Golds side the we couldn't work this out together...it's just the opposite and that stays with the entire group that moves with it.

Almost forgot, sorry about missing what you stated in game but I just dont read half the things that pop up (I'm not used to it and all of my friends talk to me through mics), so it generally gets left to being on the side of my screen that I dont look at. If you ask how I could miss it, it's because I'm color blind and when mining it all looks the same lol, and I also have 65" screen, so its not exactly right in front of my face...its the other side of my wall. Again, apologies for that but at least I saw Hugos whisper to me, so the different color helped out on that.