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Author Topic: how large should my military be?  (Read 6859 times)

wooks

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how large should my military be?
« on: September 28, 2013, 12:47:23 am »

Okay, so, after tons of fiddling and more reading and wiki paroosing than playing, I've finally reached a point where I can reliably make forts that don't crumble due to my incompetence. Now the task is to make it efficient, and more importantly make sure that my dorfs can withstand whatever RNG wants to have stumble around my fort. To be honest, I don't really know how to approach the military. I've read the wiki strategies and the odd defensive setup on the forums, but I don't have any idea how to make my military effective. That said, I don't want to danger-room my dorfs into pit-kicking-spartan-demigods, but clearly Urist McCheesemaker isn't the ideal swordsdwarf.

so, TL;DR
1 ) What % of my population should be in the military?
2 ) What are some good ways to train my military en mass that doesn't feel superbly over powered?
3 ) What is a decent fatality rate?
4 ) Should I restrict my military to only male to avoid infant deaths?
5 ) Is it worth waiting for steel production, or should I just pump out some Iron/other metals in the beginning to get off my feet?

any other suggestions?
Thanks!

Edit: You guys reply really quickly, thank you.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 04:57:07 am by wooks »
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Garukin

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 01:13:15 am »

Still coming to grips with the military after a longer hiatus, but i think i can come up with some stuff.

4) Children make good shields, they take hits like champs.

5) Iron is fair enough, and making sets of iron (or bronze, copper, whatever) equipment for your militia is a good way for your smiths to skill up before making the steel stuff.


Beyond that, marksdwarves make excellent support even if they're equipped with low quality bolts and are lacking in skill. Live combat raises experience quickly and if you stick them in bunkers they're relatively protected and can casually shower invaders with -Yak bone bolts- to wound and kill them before engaging with melee.

Other things i can think of are:
-Let your squads group up nearby before sending them in to combat, or you'll inevitably end up with your guys going in one man at a time.
-Avoid open battles (especially before your militia is well equipped and skilled), use defenses and corners to your advantage to cut line of sight from enemy archers.
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Merendel

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2013, 01:54:39 am »

1/2) Well a good first step is for every migrant wave after the first 2 hardcoded ones draft 2-3 dwarfes into their own squad, assign them a weapon and get them training.  If the wave is exceptionaly large or you are already comfortable with your workforce feel free to draft more but keep em in 2 or 3 man training squads.  This will start building a modest sized force and like a saveings account it grows over time.  You can keep adding to your military whenever you notice that your idelers are staying consistantly high.  Theres no hard and fast % of your fort that should be military, just follow the rule of thumb that all dwarves should be doing something productive, if they are not productive its probably time for boot camp.

3) early on? melee dwarves about 75%.  Untill they are trained and well armored frankly I wouldn't bother sending in the melee without 2-1 odds(2 dwarfs to 1 enemy)  Marksdwarves you can probably go no losses right out the gate if you can get them to all arrive with bolts in their quiver if there is not too many enemies. If you perch them out of reach of melee behind fortifications then they can plink all day as long as no eliet bowmen show up.  Melee dwarves do shine later on but you really want them training for a couple years in 2-3 man squads or stick them in a danger room for a while.

4) meh up to you.  I try to keep my female military as marksdwarvs and the melee all male but baby meat shields are a valid approach depending on who you ask.

5)  Iron is good enough to start and its better than nothing if you need your military for an emergency.  Better to gear them now and upgrade them later if at all possible.  If nothing else once you have enough steel/candy equipment for your military you can issue all that iron gear to the civies so they have a chance of surviving an ambush.
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darkrider2

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2013, 02:04:55 am »

1. There's no reasonable metric. Though I'd say have at least 5-8 crossbow users, its just ridiculously useful. My main complaint though is they tend to stand there and shoot 50 bolts into the beak dog that's already bleeding to death while the rest run away from (or toward) your melee soldiers.

2. Live training works, sort of, troglodytes are my favorite. Place a lot of cage traps at the entrance to the caverns, troglodytes love pathing into cage traps. Make sure all of your military dwarves are suited in armor, and give them training-swords/spears/axes, or no weapon (if you're interested in having wrestlers :P). Then mass pit the hostile troglodytes into a room where your military is waiting.

You can also use pretty much any other critter that walks into cage traps, crundles, ant-men, plump-helmet men, just make sure to wiki the creature first, don't want to pit that jabberer into your untrained military, will result in fun.

3. Depends, losing an entry level swordsman is acceptable, but your legendary hammerdwarf with 40 kills? Might as well have lost 20 rookies.

4. If you have baby cap off, yes. Unless of course said female dwarf immigrates with high combat skills.

5. Its more important to have armor now than better armor later. Give em all iron armor suits, then the ones who live to be at least somewhat skilled can get the shiny steel suits later.



*The current (very) slow training of dwarves may or may not be a bug, in which case danger/coinstar-rooms are sort-of the work-around for it. I don't really like it much, but normal training takes decades before you get a useful soldier.

*ahem*

I'm curious, does the dodge-roll for dodging a minecart train the dodging skill?
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vanatteveldt

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 02:45:19 am »

*The current (very) slow training of dwarves may or may not be a bug, in which case danger/coinstar-rooms are sort-of the work-around for it. I don't really like it much, but normal training takes decades before you get a useful soldier.


I disagree. If you get soldiers to spar a lot they get to a decent skill level in a couple of years.

(That said, I don't bother training up total newbs, every immigration wave seems to have a decent amount of people with military skills in it, so they don't start from scratch)
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Meph

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 04:27:46 am »

1) 50%
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flameaway

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2013, 06:18:07 am »

Answering #2, #3 and #5:

My advice is to just commit to making a military. Save yourself a lot of "when is the siege coming" angst and trap making time.  Getting a basic military setup isn't as hard as you are making it seem; it's just takes a lot of steps to get it set up correctly. But once you do you'll think, "Wow, that sure makes things a lot easier!".  So, it's worth the initial investment.  A couple hammer dorfs dedicated to training from embark will meet your military needs for a long time. Most especially if you build slowly in the beginning, don't run your wealth up too fast and leave the HFS alone.

You'll want to put your hammer dorfs in the proper leather armor with a shield and a copper war hammer.  That's all you need at first. (upgrade to full metal jacket as you can, there is really no rush in the easier embarks, and steel armor runs your wealth up and exposes you to more sieges, ambushes and mega-beast attacks.)  Those two dorfs can handle the first ten years worth of ambushes and sieges with ease.  They can take on a full siege by themselves and not take a scratch.  They will dodge arrows, bolts and a variety of physical attacks.  Those attacks that hit them generally get blocked by the shield.  The attacks they can't block, generally get absorbed by about six layers of leather cloaks. (read about layering armor properly http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Armor)  Whatever manages to hit a hammer dorf  often does only bruise level damage, because...

Military dwarves are incredibly tough and dangerous... Not that the game doesn't present them challenges; it does, but you are asking about beginning military, not how to deal with HFS.

The easiest way I've found (from wiki and forum) to build a rudimentary military is to simply use embark points to train two dorfs as hammer-dwarves.  I also train one to max in dodge and the other to max in striking.  This enables them to train the other faster in the respective skill while they spar.

After embark, before I un-pause the game, I assign one dwarf as the leader in the nobles screen,  "n".

Then I create a squad in the military screen, "m", and assign the other hammer dwarf to the militia commander's squad.

Next, I setup a custom set of leather "armor" that is essentially a bunch of cloaks, hoods, mittens and socks.  Then I assign this armor set as replace clothing "r" to my squad using the military screens equip "e" command.  This is accomplished by assigning uniforms "U" command and "shift-enter" to actually assign the set to the entire squad.  Note, that the dorfs will not actually be able to equip this stuff until my leather worker (and clothier for socks) make the items.  Doesn't really matter, as long as you create the items the dorfs will automatically equip them once you've assigned them a set of armor. (make sure to read the wiki about the proper layering of armor)

Then I assign them the copper war hammer they embarked with. (you'll want to upgrade to a silver war hammer fairly soon to prevent your dwarf from becoming attached to an inferior weapon.)  The shield I'll equip once my carpenter actually creates it.

Okay, so that's all the stuff I do for the military before hitting the space bar and letting the game run.

Now, keep in mind none of this does crap unless you give the dorfs a place to train - a barracks.  Which is easy enough, I generally have my carpenter make a weapon rack.  Have your dorfs build the weapon rack in an appropriate location. Once built, using "q", create a barracks and assign your hammer squad to this barracks.   You must make certain to tell them to train in this menu.  You do this by hitting "t".  I generally also assign them to sleep in the barracks by also pressing "z", but this in not really necessary.

Cool. Now your hammer dorfs know what equipment they'll need.  They know where to train and sleep.  But you still haven't given them a schedule to train by. Press "m" then "s" and this will take you to the military scheduling screen. You'll see your squad name up top and a list of months with a column for orders.  Highlight an order and the edit it, "e", so that your train order only trains two minimum - "shift-enter" makes the assignment.  Then copy this order "c" to all months.

Now you've set the schedule but you haven't told the hammer dwarves to actually follow it. That's the last step.  Press 's' and the squads menu will appear.  Press  "a" to chose your hammer squad then 't' to toggle that setting to active/training.  Escape to the main screen.
 
Now, if you've completed all these steps correctly, you'll soon see your dwarves becoming military dwarves and sparring.   Let them go about their business and they will train themselves to hammer lords within the first year or so.  No need for danger rooms or other fancy training schemes.  Not unless you are doing the more difficult embarks. 

Please note that your hammer dwarves will not actually train the armor skill until they equip armor.  Like mail shirts or helms which you'll have to create for them and then assign as a new armor set.

NOTE: The above method assumes a fairly new player; wilderness or calm embarks and allows a lot of dwarves to be assigned to the various building tasks that come with creating a new fortress.  This method is sort of "set it up and forget it" until you need to kick ass.  This hands off approach to military training helps when you are still trying to learn how to keep all the other things running evenly. I do this because I like to tinker and invent things.  So, this method gives me the time and staff to do so. In addition, if I decide I need a lot more military very quickly, I already have everything set up but the danger rooms.

A lot depends on what you want to do.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 07:21:13 am by flameaway »
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jonanlsh

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2013, 06:30:12 am »

1) In the first year, neglect the military.
In the second year, create 2 squads, 1 5-dwarf crossbow team and 1 5-dwarf axes team. Axes are recommended for their attacks of greater damage than swords. Crossbows are obviously for the range.
In the third year, you should have a self-sustaining fort already. Feel free to expand your military as you see fit. Diversify your weaponry, or stick to a uniform theme. Have 3 squads of marksdwarves to rain fire upon goblins while your legendary axe-bearers dismember them gobs, or have it in the reverse! It is totally up to you.

2)As stated above and by others, it takes an ungodly amount of time to train legendary military dwarves. The recommended training method is through a dwarven danger room. By building an upright spike trap, attaching it to a lever and filling the trap with training spears (their ends are rounded, not spiked), with the sacrifice of a single dwarf to repeatedly pull the lever, your dwarves can all become legendary in their combat skills in 1 minute flat.

3)A decent fatality rate is 1 in every 5 or so in the beginning, then towards 1 to 50 in the later stages, then 1-1 in the endgame (with good reason).

4)As long as you never enlist any dwarves who are already in a relationship or, worse, married, so long as the enlistees are put on permanent training, most of them will never spend enough time to socialize and get hooked up. I made the mistake once of enlisting a married dwarf-ett. Her baby got shredded in the tri-annual Military-Danger-Fest.

5)If you can afford it, get steel quickly. It is the best standard metal before candy, and gives unmatched protection (besides candy). But once your steel-equipped army is ready, you have about till your fortress reaches 80 dwarves before the first attacks come in. Prepare your army well if you wish to invest in steel.

Other tips are as follows:

Make sure your military orders allow some of the dwarves to go and grab food on a regular basis. Set your training orders so that at any time, there are 6 dwarves training.

Allow your military to sleep in their own rooms. Personal furniture will give the troops a morale boost, plus, a beserking legendary warrior is not a good thing. Make the troops rooms second only to the nobles' rooms in terms of quality. Heck, give them the best rooms in the fortress. It does have the added bonus of pissing off your nobles.

For all that is holy, do not set your troops to patrol or station on a monthly basis. For some reason, even long-term troops get negative thoughts from being on patrol. I think its a bug. To prevent this, have your barracks placed directly outside the entrance to the fortress. If necessary, carve fortifications into the walls, to give your troops line-of-sight to intruders.

Lastly, even if some of your migrants come with military skills included, don't indulge them. Make your squads uniformly axes or hammers or crossbows. Not only will this make weaponry and armor assignment easier for you, it will allow you to effectively coordinate your squads during sieges, or worse.


My military consists of 4 10-dwarf main squads. 1 squad permanently defends the cavern entranceway, 2 squads defend the entrance and 1 candy axe squad spearheads all siege-breaking efforts. I can't be bothered with all the assigning that is required for efficient marksdwarf management. Hammers are not very useful when they're made of candy, so that's also why all my military are axedwarves.
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Snaake

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 08:17:34 am »

For fast training, you want 2- or 3-dwarf training orders (doesn't have to be 2-3 dwarves per squad, you can assign multiple 2- or 3-dwarf training orders to larger squads), OR you want the squad leader to have high skill and high teacher skill to begin with. Best way to get that high skill is to preferably embark with a couple of dwarves as proficient teachers, but they'll also skill it up with time when sparring (when they do demonstrations in between).

If you don't believe me, dig up the science thread on teacher skill; it's a must-have if you want demonstrations to be any use, but training with it does go faster than just sparring, especially when it comes to dodging/armor user, which sparring doesn't raise so quickly.

Also, I was sending my melee (10-15 melee, 4-5 marksdwarves) out to fight sieges with just bronze weapons, helms, wooden shields, leather/bronze boots and maybe a bronze chain shirt when they were about 50/50 legendary and sub-legendary (10-14 skill). Marksdwarves didn't even have that much armor or skill. No casualties from combat, a few arm/leg injuries. Weapons and shields (wood is just fine!) are always my first priority, then a metal helm, after that everything else can wait a while, a low-quality copper/bronze/iron mail shirt or even leather armor isn't that hard to get though. Also, bone greaves and gauntlets, if you don't feel like smithing yet.
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Naryar

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2013, 02:23:02 pm »

1) 20%, assuming you have around 50 dwarves: more in very large forts

2) Make multiple 2-dwarf squads, equip them, and activate them all year round. They'll spar soon enough and you will see good increases. The less dwarves there are in a squad the more they spar. also get them to kill stuff sometime for more increases.

3) If you do it right... 1/10 is a minimum for me. Expect far greater losses to HFS.

4) No. Babies make good shields, and it's not only for the comedic aspect of it... better than a baby dies and a legendary soldier doesn't take that hit. besides your military should be already battle hardened by now.

5) No. Start with iron equipment, train your armorsmiths and weaponsmiths on copper (or on iron so you get better quality armor), then go to steel and adamantine. Bronze... wait do you actually have tin ore on your map ?

mirrizin

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2013, 04:00:27 pm »

I think after a while it depends on how you want to run your defensive setup. If you're setting up a solid trap corridor, then you might be able to get by with a couple squads. If you're planning to play gateless and with a cap on archers, sky's the limit.

Current fortress (pop~215) has three main gates in a perimeter wall. I currently maintain three archer squads, one for each gate, and four melee squads, one per each gate and one spare. I keep a trap corridor in case of elite goblin archers, and have some fairly effective swaths of traps. If I had fewer traps, I'd probably need another squad or two. Without the trap corridor I'd see heavier archer casualties. One goblin master bowman can wipe out a whole squad because once the marksdwarves engage they won't retreat even if you tell them to.
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Blue_Dwarf

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2013, 04:08:27 pm »

You need like 20 dwarves for doing labors. Everybody else should be in the military.

So as soon as you have enough to get organized, start recruiting every idler. They can still help haul stuff if needed.
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Grimmash

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2013, 05:31:10 pm »

If you are in a non-hostile embark and have decent defenses (multiple layers of bridges, some traps, some fortifications for archers) I find 2 full melee squads and 2 archer squads are good for the first decade or so.  Once you start getting really powerful FBs, sieges with hundreds of goblins, or a siege with nasty ranged squads, then it gets hairy, and you should plan ahead for that.  FBs have nasty syndromes that can lay low your legendary melee dwarves after the battle and ranged enemies will eventually be able to hit past your fortifications. 

One consideration is that once you get further along, new recruits will be rather worthless, but their deaths can cause all sorts of havoc if they are friends with other dwarves.  So train up squads as you have the dwarves to spare. 

mopstar

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2013, 09:07:05 am »

Depends on your type of Fort Really for how large your military should be.I normally go with 40-50% full time military Otherwise you just get a good heap of idlers.
It also helps to have the numbers like these in case your main defensive line just collapses It will happen eventually with no traps ,you should still have semi trained and already armed dwarves around the fort and you can gather them all up to make a better combined effort than just mass drafting a ton of recruits that run out wearing half uniforms and weapons with no training in them.

To train en masses military the most decent way I find is when you have your first squad full take the second best dwarf and assign him as the next captain.He should be able to pass on skills pretty successfully to the next batch of drafts and just continue taking either the best or the people training in the first for new captains since these people should be getting hardened by fighting and watching deaths.Teaching skill does help here a ton so I like taking a starting dwarf with teaching skills.

If your playing with goblins that bring siege beats like
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
10-15% of your military either sustaining losses or just crippling injuries is a good enough rate,This will go down the better your dwarves get and the better you prepare your defences to allow marks dwarves to get in more crippling hits on incoming goblin.Having A dedicated Hospital Team and zone that has its own well and soap and massive surplus of stores is vital in reducing loses and churning your dwarves back out quickly so they can keep training.

While It could help a bit to avoid tantrums the people in combat gain that Hardened trait seem to be less affected by deaths and whatnot so in the long run it does not really matter.

Having a lot of people in mixed metal armours is better than having people with very limited armour coverage.It will also help them gain armour skill that bit more.In most cases     fresh dwarves in steel armour will be slow and not able to make many turns.Its a weight/protection matter but I will normally issue lighter armours with steel weaponry over the other way around.

As a general note dont get attached to any military dorfs your sending into fights even if they fight like a god a random arrow or bolt can and will kill them instantly.

Hope that helps a little       
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Matoro

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Re: how large should my military be?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2013, 09:23:45 am »

You should either havy large (~40% of population) military or damn good elite forces. Just 20 full-steel legendary fighters with some ranged support will kill anything. It's more important to get skill than to get many dwarves.
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